Studying ; Game of the day |UPD ; 25/8/2011|

Christos · Post by **Christos** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:36 am

Hello fellow go-enthusiasts,

Today I have decided that in order to become stronger, I will replay at least one professional game a day (next to the other stuff I intend to do i.e. tsumego/watching lectures and playing).
Now as I know I (sadly) lack a fair bit of self-discipline I had to figure out a way to commit myself to actually doing this and keeping my resolution, which is where this topic comes in.

Here is how it's going to work ;

Every day I will update this post with a new professional game, I will personally replay this game several times and write down any thoughts and/or questions I have about it and I encourage you to do the same.
I will share these with you (mind you I'm fairly weak), you share yours with the rest of the group and we will try our bests to help eachother out, we'll work together, hivemind.
This post will be updated with the most insightful and FAQ (and answers) aswell as thoughts, and once the day passes and it is time for a new game I will put it in spoiler tags with the date so you can always look back at older games
we discussed. I am also considering featuring one of the joseki (assuming there were any in the game) played and looking at it in a little more depth (or possibly the exact variation from the game), but I'm not sure if that'd be helpful, any feedback regarding this is most welcome.
As for what games I will pick, they will probably mostly be at random, I will also accept any and all requests for a particular game or even a particular pattern and I will try my best to feature a game containing that pattern.

I must warn you that though discussion is one of the purposes of this, any and all negativity will not be tolerated. If you disagree with someone's opinion please offer constructive criticism rather than humiliating or insulting someone.
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I saw this game on gogameguru today. It looked like a lot of fun that's why I decided to replay it today

Game of the Day 25/8/2011

[sgf-full](;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Japanese]SZ[19]KM[6.50]
PW[Park Jieun]PB[Gu Li]WR[9d]BR[9d]DT[2011-08-24]EV[16th Samsung Cup]RO[Round of 32]PC[Beijing]SO[http://gogameguru.com/]C[http://gogameguru.com/]RE[B+Resign]
;B[pd]
;W[dd]
;B[qp]
;W[dp]
;B[oq]
;W[qf]
;B[qi]
;W[nd]
;B[pf]
;W[qc]
;B[qe]
;W[pc]
;B[ld]
;W[fq]
;B[cf]
;W[fc]
;B[bd]
;W[cc]
;B[ci]
;W[ck]
;B[jp]
;W[co]
;B[pl]
;W[nc]
;B[km]
;W[ll]
;B[lm]
;W[nl]
;B[lk]
;W[nj]
;B[ml]
;W[ol]
;B[pm]
;W[mi]
;B[nn]
;W[pq]
;B[or]
;W[iq]
;B[jq]
;W[jr]
;B[kr]
;W[qj]
;B[pj]
;W[pi]
;B[qk]
;W[ph]
;B[qg]
;W[qh]
;B[rj]
;W[rh]
;B[ne]
;W[mg]
;B[mf]
;W[ng]
;B[od]
;W[mb]
;B[rf]
;W[rd]
;B[kf]
;W[mk]
;B[kl]
;W[lj]
;B[cq]
;W[dq]
;B[ip]
;W[bh]
;B[bi]
;W[ce]
;B[dk]
;W[cl]
;B[bf]
;W[ch]
;B[dh]
;W[di]
;B[eh]
;W[ai]
;B[dj]
;W[bj]
;B[cj]
;W[dg]
;B[de]
;W[eg]
;B[cg]
;W[bl]
;B[fg]
;W[ef]
;B[ee]
;W[ff]
;B[ed]
;W[ec]
;B[cd]
;W[ge]
;B[fh]
;W[dc]
;B[bc]
;W[dl]
;B[bg]
;W[ah]
;B[ag]
;W[aj]
;B[fk]
;W[jd]
;B[if]
;W[gg]
;B[gh]
;W[hg]
;B[je]
;W[id]
;B[kd]
;W[bb]
;B[ab]
;W[ba]
;B[df]
;W[ir]
;B[hp]
;W[nf]
;B[me]
;W[ae]
;B[be]
;W[hh]
;B[gj]
;W[fm]
;B[gq]
;W[gr]
;B[fr]
;W[er]
;B[lb]
;W[jb]
;B[hr]
;W[fs]
;B[hq]
;W[mm]
;B[ll]
;W[gl]
;B[hi]
;W[jg]
;B[kg]
;W[jh]
;B[oe]
;W[nm]
;B[mn]
;W[go]
;B[kb]
;W[jn]
;B[in]
;W[jm]
;B[ko]
;W[im]
;B[el]
;W[em]
;B[hn]
;W[oc]
;B[gn]
;W[fl]
;B[ik]
;W[ek]
;B[ej]
;W[gk]
;B[fj]
;W[hs]
;B[js]
;W[fo]
;B[hm]
;W[lg]
;B[kj]
;W[lf]
;B[md]
;W[kc]
;B[mc]
;W[na]
;B[re]
;W[ij]
;B[hj]
;W[jk]
;B[il]
;W[jj]
;B[jl])[/sgf-full]

Comments on my part are to follow later, I am not feeling very well right now

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Older games
GOTD 24/8/2011

Comments regarding GOTD 24/08/2011

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GOTD 23/8/2011

Comments Regarding GOTD 23/8/2011

Happy learning!

- Christos

emeraldemon · Post by **emeraldemon** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:10 am

At least, regarding the joseki, it looks like the one space jump is a bit more common than the 3-3 invasion:

http://dailyjoseki.com/browse/bwpwxibwk

But it may just be a style thing. Both are definitely playable.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:21 am

I think the jump is considered an old and outdated pattern.

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:11 am

Christos wrote:
- is 7 F15 for black not playable and possibly better? In the end I suppose it's all about your own style and Cho Chikun is a fairly territory-oriented player, or am I missing another reason why my move is inferior?
- White 54 looks really uncomfortable, this group could fall under heavy attack later. But I'm not sure if white has much of a choice in the matter.
- What did the exchange from 188 to 194 get for white? They seem like wasted ko threats and he ends in gote.
- 201 - 209 was an awesome exchange for black, I doubt I would've seen it no matter how much time I got (even after he played T8 I didn't know what his purpose was)
- 242 last move in the game, Black resigns, he appears to be ahead at the moment but he will be forced to capture the white group in his own territory after which he will be behind. Could that have been the purpose of white's exchange earlier in the game despite it being gote?

snorri · Post by **snorri** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:27 am

Ah, yes. My Friday Night Files, otherwise known as one person's shrine to Cho Chikun

I'm not sure why people are hiding their comments.

When a game goes to the endgame, I think it's interesting to look at the opening position and see if it looks at all like the endgame position or of territories have been exchanged. It's also interested to see which stones are saved vs. sacrificied. Take a look at the position at move 53:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Moves 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . O B . . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O B . O X O . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O O O O B . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . B B B O . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Usually Cho likes territory very much, but here we see black occupying three corners. Here, I think what is interesting is the exchanges made by black's marked stones. The ones on the upper side have already been sacrificed, and the three in the center are very short of liberties. I think many beginners would have tried to save both sets of stones early. (About 50 moves later, black does eventually connect the center stones, but they become dame points.)

For me, it is a little hard to appreciate what black has gained by this forcing. Maybe we can talk about whether the wedge at 37 is somehow made more powerful by that. If black had played this wedge earlier, for example, here, how would it have gone?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Alternate move 29 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O X . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . . . 1 , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Anyway, I think I'm missing some concepts that would help me appreciate moves 29-37 more, so maybe stronger players can help. Maybe black's view is that this is all just kikasare for white, so, you know, whatever. But it would hard for me to emulate what black is doing there. I don't like to force like that without a clear idea of what's being gained. I guess if white has to play too many slow moves to capture the forcing stones (i.e. they are bait) that's one thing, but the value is hard to judge.

Let's start with that. I'll have other questions later...

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:51 am

snorri wrote:... Take a look at the position at move 53:

$$B Moves 53
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X O . . . O B . . O X X . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . O B . O X O . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . O O O O B . . O X X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . B B B O . . O O X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Moves 53 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . O B . . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O B . O X O . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . O O O O B . . O X X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . B B B O . . O O X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 1 . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

...

For me, it is a little hard to appreciate what black has gained by this forcing. ...

Didn't black get a very large corner? Also, I think there was some aji in the center with the two white stones... But I'm mostly guessing

I thought move 29 was really interesting, I've never seen it before. My guess is that it and the following moves were just to give white bad shape? :scratch:

snorri · Post by **snorri** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:07 pm

daniel_the_smith wrote:
Didn't black get a very large corner? Also, I think there was some aji in the center with the two white stones... But I'm mostly guessing

Yes, but that was his privilege anyway.

daniel_the_smith wrote:I thought move 29 was really interesting, I've never seen it before. My guess is that it and the following moves were just to give white bad shape?

is a common lighter shape, as is the gozumi at :w30:

to be severe. I might play these moves, but the question is the timing and how it relates to the wedge at :b37:

I just don't know what black is thinking there. Maybe if black wedges like in my second diagram with :b29:

rather than playing the knight's move white will no longer answer the knight's move as in the game? If that is so, maybe it's case of getting the forcing moves in while white will still answer them.

None of this makes sense to me unless black's three center stones become useful somehow. So I'm looking to understand why those might be a headache for white.

Christos · Post by **Christos** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:40 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Alternate move 29 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . 8 7 9 . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O X . 6 5 O . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . . 2 1 3 X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 4 O X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks worse for black than after black exchanges the moves at the top first do you not agree? There is no real way for black to get forcing moves in anymore other than by running. Granted black might not try for the corner but not doing so would render the wedge useless I think.

However not playing the wedge leaves the following follow up for white.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Alternate move 29 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . . O X . . . O 5 1 . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . O , . . 9 3 2 4 X 8 . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 6 O X . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The stones black places in the game do not seem important, they look like mere sente moves played for aji. I think the main goal is to safely invade as deep as possible by threatening to connect to the stones. Of course I can be way off base, just my two cents.

Life In 19x19

Studying ; Game of the day |UPD ; 25/8/2011|

Studying ; Game of the day |UPD ; 25/8/2011|

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