The tough road to 8k

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 3:35 pm

All I can say is...FINALLY! I've finally made it to 8k. 9k has been the toughest barrier for me so far, I think. I've been a 9k for roughly five months, though that's probably because I had periods of inactivity. Regardless, it feels so good to finally get past 9k.

Of course, the break through game was filled with errors for both players. Overall, it was a really fun game though!

Any suggestions?

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:12 pm

hailthorn011 wrote: I've finally made it to 8k.

hailthorn011 wrote:Any suggestions?

7K

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:43 pm

5: Timid, but not actively bad. It seems more interesting to approach one of his corners, which are both helpfully facing the way you want them to.

15: Nooo, trying too hard! It will be enough to take sente, even if that's the absolute best you can do. Just D15 leaves black with no problems, it's barely worth caring about the few points in the corner.

16: Probably should be E17 to let white live easily without giving black's shape too much of a booast.

29: In this shape, C3 is rarely not a good idea. It's free.

31: It isn't obvious to me that this really helps you, but it might be okay. My immediate thought would be to play C3, maybe F5, and aim at E8 to force white to live small.

41: Again, trying far too hard. The simple way to play is just to take E9. Even if white lives (which isn't particularly important), black will end up with a pleasant wall with no defects. This way just invites white E9 at some point, even already.

59: Seems a bit aji keshi, it isn't obvious to me that this is the atari you really want.

75: You're fighting against yourself here, having assumed that eating the whole corner was possible. Perhaps you must just play E2 now.

97: White has a grudge against himself.

125: This leaves white with a single viable move. This single viable move leaves black with broken shape. Therefore, black forced white to play a good move. Therefore, R9 is bad. You want to play a better shape, R11 or Q10. R11 is probably the harsh move you wanted to play. The shape is much better, then.

155: I hope this was a misread!

171: A bit small and rubbish, but the game is more or less settled so it doesn't matter much. Perhaps better technique is to force at J9 and H12, before playing perhaps K11. This larger scale way to play gives you much better shape, and claims more than the ~4 points of N12.

It's worth noting that in multiple places (particularly on the right side) you made mistakes which let white live easily/unexpectedly, or in some cases even attack back. The lesson to learn is that you do not need to kill! As with the top left (where luckily white erred too), trying too hard to kill may be a recipe for disaster. If white is living small, it doesn't even matter, and you can use his preoccupation with life to build walls in sente that will destroy his own territory later. Your current way of playing, fixated on what you're predetermined to be 'MINE' and 'HIS', is generally actively bad.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:44 pm

17: You're commited to blitzkrieg. Stay focussed. Fill his liberties faster than he can fill yours. You have three cutting points, and no time to protect them all. Play B17 before he does. He could live with B15 and B17.
( BTW, the fact that you did not play B17 means that you embarked on a risky capturing race without reading it out )

29: This is a bit too far away from your lone stone and too close to your strength. If you wish to play in this area, D8 may work.
Overall C3 may be better.

39: E9 is huge for both of you.

47: Again, you have a bunch of cutting points. Fix the most dangerous one with E6.

69: That stone ought to be executed for desertion under fire. Fight it out with F9.

73: Again, you have a cutting stone (F4) that can hurt you. Protect against the cut with E2.

I'll quit here. A common theme in your first 100 moves is that you leave cutting points all over. Change that habit and you'll be 7K easily.

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:11 pm

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
hailthorn011 wrote: I've finally made it to 8k.

hailthorn011 wrote:Any suggestions?

7K

Thanks. I was thinking the same thing! But the first goal is to make sure I don't lose the rank the next game I play. lol

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:33 pm

amnal wrote:5: Timid, but not actively bad. It seems more interesting to approach one of his corners, which are both helpfully facing the way you want them to.

15: Nooo, trying too hard! It will be enough to take sente, even if that's the absolute best you can do. Just D15 leaves black with no problems, it's barely worth caring about the few points in the corner.

16: Probably should be E17 to let white live easily without giving black's shape too much of a booast.

29: In this shape, C3 is rarely not a good idea. It's free.

31: It isn't obvious to me that this really helps you, but it might be okay. My immediate thought would be to play C3, maybe F5, and aim at E8 to force white to live small.

41: Again, trying far too hard. The simple way to play is just to take E9. Even if white lives (which isn't particularly important), black will end up with a pleasant wall with no defects. This way just invites white E9 at some point, even already.

59: Seems a bit aji keshi, it isn't obvious to me that this is the atari you really want.

75: You're fighting against yourself here, having assumed that eating the whole corner was possible. Perhaps you must just play E2 now.

97: White has a grudge against himself.

125: This leaves white with a single viable move. This single viable move leaves black with broken shape. Therefore, black forced white to play a good move. Therefore, R9 is bad. You want to play a better shape, R11 or Q10. R11 is probably the harsh move you wanted to play. The shape is much better, then.

155: I hope this was a misread!

171: A bit small and rubbish, but the game is more or less settled so it doesn't matter much. Perhaps better technique is to force at J9 and H12, before playing perhaps K11. This larger scale way to play gives you much better shape, and claims more than the ~4 points of N12.

It's worth noting that in multiple places (particularly on the right side) you made mistakes which let white live easily/unexpectedly, or in some cases even attack back. The lesson to learn is that you do not need to kill! As with the top left (where luckily white erred too), trying too hard to kill may be a recipe for disaster. If white is living small, it doesn't even matter, and you can use his preoccupation with life to build walls in sente that will destroy his own territory later. Your current way of playing, fixated on what you're predetermined to be 'MINE' and 'HIS', is generally actively bad.

Thanks for the comments. A lot of what you said makes sense and is true. Especially after looking over it myself. Move 5 was intentionally soft. I was being careful and I figured I'd have more to gain where I played and then perhaps target W's interesting moves at the bottom. Move 155 was a HUGE mistake, I agree. A total misread. I didn't notice w could simply live in both places, so it was a typical low Kyu mistake. Hopefully I learned from that one... :mrgreen:

amnal wrote: Your current way of playing, fixated on what you're predetermined to be 'MINE' and 'HIS', is generally actively bad.

What do you mean by this? I think I understand, but I just want to make sure.

@Joaz Banbeck I agree about the cutting points. I noticed particularly at the top left that I left a lot of weak spots. That's why I took care of it as fast as possible. Although like you point out, I could have done it better.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:43 am

hailthorn011 wrote:
amnal wrote: Your current way of playing, fixated on what you're predetermined to be 'MINE' and 'HIS', is generally actively bad.

What do you mean by this? I think I understand, but I just want to make sure.

Hmm, yes, it isn't very clear what I meant, I didn't put it very well.

I was referring to the way that in places like the top left, as soon as white invaded you devoted everything to making him live as small as absolutely possible. That led to some good moves, like the aggressive peep when he played badly, but also some bad moves such as the hane that left too many cutting points (even though white made a mistake that let you get away with it).

I feel that the reason for these mistakes ultimately comes down to thinking 'I had more stones in the area therefore I am allowed to attack harshly'. This is somewhat true, but it misses a better goal that is harder to see. It is better to not care about the territory at all, but instead to say 'what? You want to invade there? Whatever.'. When you're thinking like this, you automatically start thinking more about finishing in sente/having a strong wall and less about being as harsh as you possibly can. Instead of taking a couple of points away from white, you grab the tempo of the game by giving white what he wants (the small corner), but building thickness that can dominate a much larger area. This will (well...should) tend to lead to you automatically accumulating more territory than white over time, but it's hard to see this because it doesn't work unless you become more easygoing about letting white live where you think he 'shouldn't'.

Edit: Maybe that wall of text still doesn't explain it very well. I'll try one more time...

I'm basically saying 'go with the flow'. If you try to choose a flow, it leads to moves that hurt you, like your too-many-hanes in the top left. If you accept the flow, it lets white's moves help you more than the help white - such as by making thickness in the upper left, tenukiing, and leaving white the problem of reduction (the same problem he had with the corner in the first place). If this continues, white finds it hard to grasp the game and make enough cash to win, but black rolls around the attacks and (for instance) uses thickness from an invasion to take away an equal number of white's points by invading himself.

This way of play is hard because it's long term, but strong.

blade90 · Post by **blade90** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:54 am

hailthorn011 wrote:All I can say is...FINALLY! I've finally made it to 8k. 9k has been the toughest barrier for me so far, I think

Congratulations! :clap:

What you need to improve on is not answering every move your opponent makes. For example move 65: why saving 2 stones when you can take over the lower left corner? Your 2 stones do nothing important right now and if white wants to capture them, to save his 2 stones and maybe even kill 3 more of yours, why care that will cost him 2 moves and if you lose 5 stones it will only be 10 points. The corner will be bigger and as far as i can tell it only needs 1 move so you can play the next somehere else.
And don't forget taking the corner doesn't just give you points but also saves at least 7 stones wich is more the the 5 others.

I hope you understand what I mean :scratch:

Anyway don't be dissapointed if you fall back down to 9k, it will only be temporary. Just keep playing and have fun :tmbup:

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:10 am

amnal wrote:
hailthorn011 wrote:
amnal wrote: Your current way of playing, fixated on what you're predetermined to be 'MINE' and 'HIS', is generally actively bad.

What do you mean by this? I think I understand, but I just want to make sure.

Hmm, yes, it isn't very clear what I meant, I didn't put it very well.

I was referring to the way that in places like the top left, as soon as white invaded you devoted everything to making him live as small as absolutely possible. That led to some good moves, like the aggressive peep when he played badly, but also some bad moves such as the hane that left too many cutting points (even though white made a mistake that let you get away with it).

I feel that the reason for these mistakes ultimately comes down to thinking 'I had more stones in the area therefore I am allowed to attack harshly'. This is somewhat true, but it misses a better goal that is harder to see. It is better to not care about the territory at all, but instead to say 'what? You want to invade there? Whatever.'. When you're thinking like this, you automatically start thinking more about finishing in sente/having a strong wall and less about being as harsh as you possibly can. Instead of taking a couple of points away from white, you grab the tempo of the game by giving white what he wants (the small corner), but building thickness that can dominate a much larger area. This will (well...should) tend to lead to you automatically accumulating more territory than white over time, but it's hard to see this because it doesn't work unless you become more easygoing about letting white live where you think he 'shouldn't'.

Edit: Maybe that wall of text still doesn't explain it very well. I'll try one more time...

I'm basically saying 'go with the flow'. If you try to choose a flow, it leads to moves that hurt you, like your too-many-hanes in the top left. If you accept the flow, it lets white's moves help you more than the help white - such as by making thickness in the upper left, tenukiing, and leaving white the problem of reduction (the same problem he had with the corner in the first place). If this continues, white finds it hard to grasp the game and make enough cash to win, but black rolls around the attacks and (for instance) uses thickness from an invasion to take away an equal number of white's points by invading himself.

This way of play is hard because it's long term, but strong.

Okay, I understand what you mean now and I can see where you're coming from with that. I guess I still have the kill first mentality that I need to work on. lol

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:12 am

blade90 wrote:
hailthorn011 wrote:All I can say is...FINALLY! I've finally made it to 8k. 9k has been the toughest barrier for me so far, I think

Congratulations!

What you need to improve on is not answering every move your opponent makes. For example move 65: why saving 2 stones when you can take over the lower left corner? Your 2 stones do nothing important right now and if white wants to capture them, to save his 2 stones and maybe even kill 3 more of yours, why care that will cost him 2 moves and if you lose 5 stones it will only be 10 points. The corner will be bigger and as far as i can tell it only needs 1 move so you can play the next somehere else.
And don't forget taking the corner doesn't just give you points but also saves at least 7 stones wich is more the the 5 others.

I hope you understand what I mean
Anyway don't be dissapointed if you fall back down to 9k, it will only be temporary. Just keep playing and have fun

Thanks. And yes, I understand what you mean. I let them control the flow of the game when I respond to every move they play. I guess that's one more thing I need to work on.

As for dropping down again, if I lose another game (lost to an 8k last night) I will. But I'm not too worried. I think I can keep a solid 8k rank.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:36 pm

hailthorn011 wrote:... I let them control the flow of the game when I respond to every move they play...

Hmmm...I don't think that is the problem. It is a common problem for all of us - but it is not the problem at hand. It is not that you are letting the opponent control the flow of the game, rather that the flow of the game is jointly controlled - which is ok, and to be expected - but you are ignoring it.

Another way of phrasing it is that you are not listening to your stones. At move 15, your stones are pleading for reinforcements at D15 and E17. But you ignored them. It is a wonder that they didn't mutiny.

hailthorn011 · Post by **hailthorn011** » Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:05 pm

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
hailthorn011 wrote:... I let them control the flow of the game when I respond to every move they play...

Hmmm...I don't think that is the problem. It is a common problem for all of us - but it is not the problem at hand. It is not that you are letting the opponent control the flow of the game, rather that the flow of the game is jointly controlled - which is ok, and to be expected - but you are ignoring it.

Another way of phrasing it is that you are not listening to your stones. At move 15, your stones are pleading for reinforcements at D15 and E17. But you ignored them. It is a wonder that they didn't mutiny.

I guess I should expect them to leap out of the screen and attack me when I abandon them. Maybe THAT would knock the sense into me.

Joking aside, yeah, I guess there are still things that I miss in that regard.

cyclops · Post by **cyclops** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:46 pm

amnal wrote:155: I hope this was a misread!

Why?
1. Because it is a bad move by itself.
2. Because it is a bad ko treat. F16 is much better.
3. Or is there a unconditional kill on the right side. I don't see it. Not T8, not T12, not T16.

My guess would be 2.

Redundant · Post by **Redundant** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:52 pm

cyclops wrote:
amnal wrote:155: I hope this was a misread!

Why?
1. Because it is a bad move by itself.
2. Because it is a bad ko treat. F16 is much better.
3. Or is there a unconditional kill on the right side. I don't see it. Not T8, not T12, not T16.

My guess would be 2.

155 is not a ko threat. After black takes, white can connect under by monkey jump.

amnal · Post by **amnal** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:46 pm

It's a bad move because it isn't a ko threat, but my comment was more motivated because black didn't even think it was a ko threat - when white won the ko, black didn't follow through, so he clearly didn't believe what he thought earlier.

There's really no excuse for this

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