In a recent game on the club, we played the avalanche variation in the attached sgf. The colours were reversed and there were more stones on the board, but it's about the same. I played the upper left variation in case of any ladders (it was like that in the game). Anyway, after black 25, the following sequence in the sgf seems good for black. I'd like to hear some other people's opinions about this variation, and maybe other options for white.
edit: When we just played it, we thought it was good for black, but seeing it again, it doesn't look like that, since black still has a cut. Let me know what you guys think!
[admin]SGF tags changed so that it displays properly. -JB [/admin]
Avalanche variation
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emeraldemon
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Re: Avalanche variation
You're much stronger than me, so I won't try to offer positional judgement, but in a slightly off-topic note, it seems like pros these days tend to prefer the atari at s4 (from what I've seen). Here's an example from Iyama Yuta vs. Sakai Hideyuki just recently:
It's nice for us amateurs b/c it's much simpler than the fights of the usual large avalanche variations.
It's nice for us amateurs b/c it's much simpler than the fights of the usual large avalanche variations.
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HermanHiddema
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Re: Avalanche variation
I think this variation looks quite OK for white. White has points and sente. Black has influence, but the cutting point is annoying. And since this is originally black's corner, White cannot expect too much anyway.
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pancake
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Re: Avalanche variation
emeraldemon wrote:You're much stronger than me, so I won't try to offer positional judgement, but in a slightly off-topic note, it seems like pros these days tend to prefer the atari at s4 (from what I've seen).
This avoids the complications of the large avalanche, but has its own. For example, an often played opening is white q14 @ r10, and black r13. A really hard to understand sequence follows.
Anyway, I think both are popular among professionals.
@Herman: I think you're right. At the club Koen and me both thought it was good for black, but I don't see how we could even think that right now. By the way, I won that game
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HermanHiddema
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Re: Avalanche variation
Some more thoughts:
White could play N5 before playing P2, that looks like it increases the cutting aji.
White can think about playing O5 in response to P6, but that looks like a very complicated option
White could play N5 before playing P2, that looks like it increases the cutting aji.
White can think about playing O5 in response to P6, but that looks like a very complicated option
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pancake
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Re: Avalanche variation
HermanHiddema wrote:Some more thoughts:
White could play N5 before playing P2, that looks like it increases the cutting aji.
I think that might be a bit better indeed.
White can think about playing O5 in response to P6, but that looks like a very complicated option
I don't like this, since white's ladder doesn't work and black is still on the shape point. I can imagine no good follow up. Even if it's complicated, it seems better for black.
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John Fairbairn
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Re: Avalanche variation
I wonder whether worrying about the cut is an over-refinement. It's hard to imagine a scenario where the cut is powerful. There are only two (rather old) GoGoD databases games featuring this shape. In both cases the cut was not a factor at all. The outside players got large territories around their thickness (and FWIW won the games), whereas the inside player's group, while safe, took no further part in the games.
There is also a small question mark over the inside player's play in tewari terms.
There is also a small question mark over the inside player's play in tewari terms.
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John Fairbairn
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Re: Avalanche variation
John, could you give a diagram with the mentioned tewari?
Life is too short to mess around with L19 diagrams, but take off the three white stones in the middle of the bottom row of five (to cancel out the three black prisoners. The white sagari shape in the right corner then looks like a slightly inferior shape. Not enough to matter to us amateurs, perhaps, but a pro may baulk at it, and maybe that's part of the reason the line is so rare.
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pancake
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Re: Avalanche variation
John Fairbairn wrote:John, could you give a diagram with the mentioned tewari?
Life is too short to mess around with L19 diagrams, but take off the three white stones in the middle of the bottom row of five (to cancel out the three black prisoners. The white sagari shape in the right corner then looks like a slightly inferior shape. Not enough to matter to us amateurs, perhaps, but a pro may baulk at it, and maybe that's part of the reason the line is so rare.
John, taking away the three lower stones to compensate for the captures results in an inferior position for white then the one on the board. For example, when black descends on the left site he has sente endgame. So I think you can't do something like that to judge the position.
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John Fairbairn
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Re: Avalanche variation
John, taking away the three lower stones to compensate for the captures results in an inferior position for white then the one on the board. For example, when black descends on the left site he has sente endgame. So I think you can't do something like that to judge the position.
Well, pros do. It's not a case of "when black descends" but "if black descends". You have to make a judgement about who is more likely to get to that point. It's always gote for Black but it's easy to imagine it being a sente play for White. Tewari is not a rigidly calibrated tool.
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Fredrik
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Re: Avalanche variation
I'm really confused here.
I don't think you all realize that you are basically discussing one of the most basic joseki after black turn at S5.
The only difference is that A is exchanged for B, which is a bit of a minus for black normally, but it hardly makes a difference. As I mentioned before, there are some other variations for white to take, to make it a bit more complicated, but this result seems fairly even.
I found this thread interesting, because it shows that although databases are excellent tool for self-study, it can also be fairly "dangerous" because you might misinterpreted the result.
Probably the result is a bit better for black locally, but something a lot of people forget when they make an analysis is that.
1. It was blacks corner
2. White ends in sente
So considering these two things, white can also be satisfied with the result locally.
Hope this post clear up some confusion
I don't think you all realize that you are basically discussing one of the most basic joseki after black turn at S5.
The only difference is that A is exchanged for B, which is a bit of a minus for black normally, but it hardly makes a difference. As I mentioned before, there are some other variations for white to take, to make it a bit more complicated, but this result seems fairly even.
I found this thread interesting, because it shows that although databases are excellent tool for self-study, it can also be fairly "dangerous" because you might misinterpreted the result.
Probably the result is a bit better for black locally, but something a lot of people forget when they make an analysis is that.
1. It was blacks corner
2. White ends in sente
So considering these two things, white can also be satisfied with the result locally.
Hope this post clear up some confusion
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ez4u
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Re: Avalanche variation
I think the first question should be why does Black normally play at 1 below instead of the marked stone. First there is Herman's suggestion of 
before 
. While it is true that the ladder after 
does not work, the ladder after 
does! If Black defends, the stones underneath fall to 
, right?
However, perhaps more to the point, what does Black do against below? White cuts the two stones apart. Black can no longer atari down and give up the three inner stones, but if 
, White is happy to be pushed from behind. After Black takes care of the inner stones, White has sente to decide how to handle the outside. Can Black do something better here?
before . While it is true that the ladder after does not work, the ladder after does! If Black defends, the stones underneath fall to , right?However, perhaps more to the point, what does Black do against
below? White cuts the two stones apart. Black can no longer atari down and give up the three inner stones, but if , White is happy to be pushed from behind. After Black takes care of the inner stones, White has sente to decide how to handle the outside. Can Black do something better here?Dave Sigaty
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John Fairbairn
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Re: Avalanche variation
I don't think you all realize that you are basically discussing one of the most basic joseki after black turn at S5.
This position is not basic at all. There are only four GoGoD examples, but more to the point it is discussed by Takagawa in "Final Summit" (page 58). There, he indicates that the opening (still new) was being intensively discussed at the time, and the big debate was whether Black (in Fredrik's version of the diagram) should interpose the cut at 10. Takagawa eventually said no, but then changed his mind. The implication of this (supported by the numbers) is that not only is the position is not basic, but it's not even joseki. Since, however, the version with the cut has only 9 games, we can rely only on Takagawa's judgement as to whether the cut version counts as joseki.
Fujisawa Hideyuki, in his Nadare book, avoids labelling it as joseki. He says IF it becomes joseki (this was around 1969) it will be a relatively painless variation for beginners (maybe basic in that sense), but he adds that it will take a very long time for it to become established as a joseki. In other words, even he was unsure at that point whether it gave a satisfactory result, and he seems to be tilting towards no. The virtual disappearance of the line since then seems to confirm his doubts.
Incidentally, the significant move White 4 was attributed to Yasunaga Hajime. I was reading something the other day about Yasunaga (once famous as the world's strongest amateur) being granted an 8-dan diploma. At the award ceremony Go Seigen made a witty speech in which he said that it was still unclear whether this now meant Yasunaga was 8-dan amateur or 8-dan pro. Presumably the diploma, which would normally show by choice of phrases which was meant, was written in a deliberately ambiguous way. And still we hear of people agonising over whether they are 8.456 kyu or 8.457....
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Fredrik
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Re: Avalanche variation
I agree that it's not the most common joseki, as there are some slight deviations. However I did not want to add to anymore confusion as I think the result in the game was equal.
But as you bring it up John, I would be happy to show the small differences between the josekis for the ones that are interested:
This shape is basically the same as the one mentioned previously, (however a bit better for White as he can choose between using a or b as sente.
Additionally there is the option for white to play the atari at 1, making another variation:
Again leaving A or B as sente.
There are some subtle differences between all variations, however there is nothing drastic and although that the game line might be slightly inferior for white because not keeping all options available, it's also hard to say that white not exchanging 1 for 2 is the best.
At our level, and perhaps even at the professional level, it might be extremly hard to analyse the difference between these deviations. Therefore I think the result in the game is equal for both players.
Worth to notice is that after White plays at B, there is no way for Black to break out, which reverts it back to the original diagram except for the 1 2 exchange.
Edit: In addition, I would like to clarify what I meant with "basic" as well. (My first language is not English, so I'm sorry if I'm being misunderstood).
When White plays the double hane 1:
White has the option to play at 2.
There are several complicated variations after 2. I personally don't know them all. Depending on the order of moves, you can make mistakes afterwards that might leave some step-kos in the corner etc.
(The continuation is:)
After this Black has the option to play at a, b or c.
In that sense, I meant that the result in the game was extremly basic compared to this line. And although there are some small deviations, I think the result is equal for both players.
But as you bring it up John, I would be happy to show the small differences between the josekis for the ones that are interested:
This shape is basically the same as the one mentioned previously, (however a bit better for White as he can choose between using a or b as sente.
Additionally there is the option for white to play the atari at 1, making another variation:
Again leaving A or B as sente.
There are some subtle differences between all variations, however there is nothing drastic and although that the game line might be slightly inferior for white because not keeping all options available, it's also hard to say that white not exchanging 1 for 2 is the best.
At our level, and perhaps even at the professional level, it might be extremly hard to analyse the difference between these deviations. Therefore I think the result in the game is equal for both players.
Worth to notice is that after White plays at B, there is no way for Black to break out, which reverts it back to the original diagram except for the 1 2 exchange.
Edit: In addition, I would like to clarify what I meant with "basic" as well. (My first language is not English, so I'm sorry if I'm being misunderstood).
When White plays the double hane 1:
White has the option to play at 2.
There are several complicated variations after 2. I personally don't know them all. Depending on the order of moves, you can make mistakes afterwards that might leave some step-kos in the corner etc.
(The continuation is:)
After this Black has the option to play at a, b or c.
In that sense, I meant that the result in the game was extremly basic compared to this line. And although there are some small deviations, I think the result is equal for both players.
Last edited by Fredrik on Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.