wbaduk ranks

[entropi]

The rank worldwide comparison table on SL (http://senseis.xmp.net/?RankWorldwideComparison) says that a 4-5 kyu on KGS is comparable to 12-6 kyu on wbaduk.
What is the reason of that?

The same two persons playing reasonable even games on KGS can play a reasonable 6 handicap game on wbaduk One of the ranking systems must be meaningless (at least at that range) unless there is a better explanation.

Sorry if that was already discussed I recall a discussion about wbaduk ranks but the question was different as far as I remember.

[Solomon]

It's because, compared to KGS, there's an unusually large number of sandbagger players in that range on WBaduk.

[quantumf]

I remember joining wbaduk at about 7k, but thought, well, i've heard they're strong in korea, so I'll enter conservatively as a 10k. I got knocked back quickly to 17k, and never recovered higher than 13k. Half the players I encountered were dan level. I found this silly, and eventually gave up on wbaduk, and only rejoined recently, this time at my correct rank (2k at the time). All my opponent's are more or less correct now, and its now my favourite client.

One other factor which influences the variation, is that it's quite stratified by time zone. In other words, depending on the time of day you play, you'll find your average opponent is stronger or weaker. I would say a up to 2 stone discrepency. Perhaps KGS suffers from this too, although it's not as pronounced if it is (I've not noticed it).

[entropi]

That is very strange. But at the same time it means that the sandbaggers are selective. If not, since in long term everybody will get sandbagged, the variation would again reduce.

Maybe in combination with the time-zone issue, the activation period of sandbaggers coincides with the online times of some players.

But if the reason of the variation is really the sandbaggers (which seems quite possible), then it is more realistic to think that they sandbag selectively. And I cannot imagine any selection criterion other than nationality, which gives the impression that the westerners are not very much welcome by the asian wbaduk society?

This impression is obviously very subjective, it maybe (and is hopefully) completely wrong. What do you think?

[Jonas]

I think the reason is not (only) cause of sandbaggers but because of the wbaduk-habit of NEVER giving up a game where the opponent still can make mistakes. If you lose lets say 50 games at 15k I bet you'll think at least half of the games that you were way ahead but in the end still lost because of some stupid mistakes or some super aggressive overplay (which you were not able to punish properly).

When a large group dies on KGS the player resigns immediately or plays some moves and resigns after realising that there is no chance of winning when the group stays dead. When you play some asian guy on WBaduk he will play as long as every possibility of you making a mistake is erased. Because KGS-Players are not familiarized with this playingstyle I think blunders occur very often while they continue to play. On the other side the regular WBaduk-players seem very very sharp when it comes to realise a blunder and to make good use of it.

[entropi]

This explains why they are stronger at the same rank, but does it explain the variation?

Well, maybe it puts a bit of luck into the game (because of trial-error type unexpected blunders) and that creates a certain amount of variation among the equal strength guys in favour of those who play until the very end.

But can it make 6 stones difference? Two 5k guys on kgs. One can be 12k the other 6k on wbaduk.
I don't find it very realistic that the main explanation can be the last minute blunders (although it may indeed have an effect).

[Jonas]

This explains why they are stronger at the same rank, but does it explain the variation?

Well, maybe it puts a bit of luck into the game (because of trial-error type unexpected blunders) and that creates a certain amount of variation among the equal strength guys in favour of those who play until the very end.

But can it make 6 stones difference? Two 5k guys on kgs. One can be 12k the other 6k on wbaduk.
I don't find it very realistic that the main explanation can be the last minute blunders (although it may indeed have an effect).

We have a young girl at our local go club, she plays me (and other players around egf-Shodan) with 4 or 5 stones handicap and it is very hard for me to squeeze out a win... therefore she should at least be around 5 or 6 kyu.
But in even games at tournaments she plays max. 10 or 11 kyu and still wins "only" half of her games or does worse.

I think the reason why she has such a big variation regarding her rank based on given handicap and based on even games is, because she used to play against handicap for two years at the go club without playing a single even game. She knows how to handle her handicapstones well but in evengames she is kind of lost.
I think in some way the same reason can explain the variation on wbaduk. The players there tend to have not only a very aggressive but an over-aggressive playstyle which the normal kgs players arent familiar with. Adding some sandbaggers and the "dont-give-up" habit we have an explanation why there is such a gap between the ranks.

[entropi]

There is another issue here. My observation is that if the strength difference is more than 2-3 stones, then the game becomes somehow "polluted". I mean the stronger player sort of plays against himself, i.e. does not play moves that he clearly knows being overplay. If he had actually played the overplay move, the weaker player would probably not be able to punish it properly. This is probably the reason why you have to struggle to give her 5 stones whereas the real difference is more than 10 stones.

But this is a different story than what is happening with wbaduk ranks. Assume two kgs 5 kyu players both change their styles and start playing the over-agressive style as in wbaduk. Would you expect one of them to be able to give the other 6 stones? I mean, 6 stones difference is huge. Depending on the style one of them can become slightly stronger but 6 stones??? I don't know...

[karaklis]

Another point is, whether you play on the Japanese or the Korean server. When I last played on Wbaduk around one year ago, I was 18k on the Korean server. Then I played on the Japanese and made it 12k with a winning streak, but then I fell back to 16k when I turned back to the Korean server.

[Biondy]

Another point is, whether you play on the Japanese or the Korean server. When I last played on Wbaduk around one year ago, I was 18k on the Korean server. Then I played on the Japanese and made it 12k with a winning streak, but then I fell back to 16k when I turned back to the Korean server.

I don't really feel the difference between the two servers... I'd say the China server is the toughest one.