Piracy in the Go industry.

[p2501]

To my experience pirated go books are not really rare and an exception. I've made numerous encounters with people who have pirated books, offered, etc. ... But thats just my personal experience.

Another question: - what about books that are no longer available as in impossible to obtain an original copy?

[topazg]

Well morally I think there is nothing wrong with it since it is similar to lending a book or cd. But it is hard to prove legally and hard to convince someone that that's what actually happened.

Ok, in an attempt at seeking clarification:

Person A purchases 10 Go books legitimately.
Person B illegally downloads 10 Go books, and subsequently purchases 7 of them, deleting the copies of the other 3.
Person C borrows those 10 books from person A (all legitimately bought), and keeps 7 of them as person A doesn't want them back.

Person A contributes the value of 10 books into the Go book industry.
Person B contributes the value of 7 books into the Go book industry.
Person C contributes no value at all into the Go book industry.

Your feeling is that A an C are both morally acceptable, but B is not - correct?

PS I see copies that are no longer in print as acquirable by any means, but I still think morally it would be appropriate to seek a way of donating to the author or rights holder provided that they are still alive to do so.

[topazg]

1. Do you believe in private property?
2. Can one own land, and if one can, to what degree?
3. Can one own the air people breathes?
4. Is it possible to own concepts and ideas?
5. For the religious: Does not everything and everyone belong to God and God alone?
6. For the atheists: Can there be any law that is not arbitrary?
7. How do you define value.

Wow, way to increase the abstraction in one short post

1) Yes, although this is entirely based on a personal acceptance of societal normality. I begrudgingly admit that there is no moral basis to this opinion.
2) Legally yes. Morally, I have no idea.
3) Legally no. Morally, I have no idea.
4) Legally yes. Morally, I have no idea.
5) N/A
6) N/A, but intellectually, no.
7) Willingness to Pay, and Willingness to Accept

[Solomon]

3) if as in borrowing a book then okay, if as in borrowing a pdf then pirating
4) if as in borrowing a book then okay, if as in borrowing a pdf then pirating
5) if as in getting a book then okay, if as in borrowing a pdf then pirating

Good to know my university promotes piracy!

[daniel_the_smith]

I've read the thread and know all the arguments presented... but seriously all of you advocating piracy, especially of go books, make me sick. There are no words to describe my disgust.

'Piracy will always be there, so publishers will have to deal with it' - how can that even be an argument...

I hope you didn't read my posts as *advocating* piracy. I was simply making the point that it is a feature of the universe that cannot be changed. If publishers and authors wish to stay in business they will have to plan accordingly. They need to work with the universe, not against it, because the universe will always win. You can argue that this is a bug in the universe, and I may or may not agree, but for the immediate future we have no manner of fixing it even if it is a bug.

It's just like, if you want to fly, you must work with the understanding of gravity. Publishers need to work with the understanding that the marginal cost of spreading information is effectively 0. IMO, people need to start paying for the *creation* of information, not its *distribution*.

FWIW, I don't personally pirate stuff.

[tchan001]

Another similar question:

I buy electronic media, and email it to someone else then delete my copy.
My friend finishes playing or reading it, and emails it back before deleting his copy.

This is technically piracy, but how does this compare to borrowing material and then returning it?

How does sharing material on a local network compare, with regards to piracy, to sharing a purchased book between people?

Electronic media is usually licensed. Are you performing as the licence permits?
Physical books are sold. The publisher prints X numbers of books and expects to sell a percentage of that for a profit which is used to partly pay the author and other rightsholders. They do not expect to profit twice from the sales of the same physical book so it's ok for the first buyer to sell it onwards. Secondly, used books come in many different conditions. Some are excellent, some are tattered. If a book is really great and well used, the original owner may have decided to purchase a second new copy for his collection while selling off his less desirable copy cheap to other people who don't mind paying less for lower quality.

Does buying a second hand physical copy take away from the rightsholder. My answer is no because it is within their expectations when they first printed the book.

Do you buy stocks on the secondary market or do you only purchase shares via the company in an IPO or in a placement?
Does trading stock on the secondary market take away from the financing function of stocks for the company involved?

To my experience pirated go books are not really rare and an exception. I've made numerous encounters with people who have pirated books, offered, etc. ... But thats just my personal experience.

Another question: - what about books that are no longer available as in impossible to obtain an original copy?

If it's really rare, I doubt you'd be able to find a pirate copy. Some Asian go books are so rare, I doubt you'd even know they existed.
But for the ones which are rare and available on pdf, if you hunt for them long enough on ebay or amazon, etc. you can usually eventually get a physical copy although the prices may be high and the wait may be very long.

[p2501]

To my experience pirated go books are not really rare and an exception. I've made numerous encounters with people who have pirated books, offered, etc. ... But thats just my personal experience.

Another question: - what about books that are no longer available as in impossible to obtain an original copy?

If it's really rare, I doubt you'd be able to find a pirate copy. Some Asian go books are so rare, I doubt you'd even know they existed.
But for the ones which are rare and available on pdf, if you hunt for them long enough on ebay or amazon, etc. you can usually eventually get a physical copy although the prices may be high and the wait may be very long.

It was more of a hypothetical question, because it is really difficult to define at what point you have exhausted all means to legally obtain an original copy.

For instance I have bought a book on Felix Dueball ( http://senseis.xmp.net/?FelixDueball ) after seeing it as a prize on a tournament. The book cannot be bought through normal means, no book store has it no place where you can order it since its a private printing by the author Mr. Günter Cießow. Only way to obtain it is by contacting the author. If now Mr. Cießow would pass away (I certainly hope not), and all other books are sold and no second hand copys are available - that might be such a situation.

OT: That article on senseis is pretty slim. Felix Dueball was quite a figure in the german and european go scene when it was just beginning.

[tchan001]

Let me give you a concrete example. I highly doubt you'll be able to pirate this Japanese tsumego book even if you tried really hard through any channel.
http://tchan001.wordpress.com/2010/07/2 ... selection/

It took me years of searching to find a copy and I've only seen it available twice. I highly doubt you'll have the ability to pirate this book.

What is the significance of this particular book? If you don't have a copy, you can't completely collect the List of Major Works of Japanese Tsumego.


-------

On another note, would you purchase a copy of either volume of the important English language book set "All About Life and Death"? If you do, you'll be purchasing from a real physical book dealing pirate who ripped off Cho Chikun and all the other Japanese rightsholders and never paid them anything. Would you consider that piracy? Would you consider it morally wrong? I already own Chinese and Japanese editions of that book set so I know I have contributed to the rightsholders of that book.

[Phelan]

I haven't followed this discussion all the way through, but isn't this thread crossing the line on discussing politics?

[oren]

Let me give you a concrete example. I highly doubt you'll be able to pirate this Japanese tsumego book even if you tried really hard through any channel.
http://tchan001.wordpress.com/2010/07/2 ... selection/

Why give an example that doesn't matter? I don't think the author or publishing company would care if you pirated it at this point. We are discussing modern books. I don't know and haven't looked to see how many modern Asian go books get pirated.

[tchan001]

Let me give you a concrete example. I highly doubt you'll be able to pirate this Japanese tsumego book even if you tried really hard through any channel.
http://tchan001.wordpress.com/2010/07/2 ... selection/

Why give an example that doesn't matter? I don't think the author or publishing company would care if you pirated it at this point. We are discussing modern books. I don't know and haven't looked to see how many modern Asian go books get pirated.

The book came out in 1955 and the author only died in 2004. In the sense of modern copyright law, it's still modern and under copyright. Just because you don't know Asian go books doesn't mean it doesn't matter. This is an international forum so it matters to some people even if it doesn't have any meaning to you.

Does "Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go" matter to you? That's a translation of the Go Super Book Series Vol#11. This series of books came out between 1969 and 1975. So are you trying to tell me that something written in 1955 is ancient while something originally written between 1969 and 1975 is considered modern?

[oren]

This series of books came out between 1969 and 1975. So are you trying to tell me that something written in 1955 is ancient while something originally written between 1969 and 1975 is considered modern?

I would argue both at this point are ancient. They made the money they were going to make in their print runs. What matters is what authors and publishing companies do from now on.

[tchan001]

Helel, I only have one thing to say to you.

Good to see you playing Ban-Go with your bet on the table in your avatar

[hyperpape]

I haven't followed this discussion all the way through, but isn't this thread crossing the line on discussing politics?

Yes, but this is the (rare) case where the rule is obviously misguided. Hypothetically, if the US government banned visits by Go professionals, we would discuss it on the boards. And if someone seriously objected that it violated the TOS, they would be "a bad person" (as I remember the TOS).

[hyperpape]

No time to seriously address topazg's questions, but I'd recommend "The Teleporter Thought Library: A Copyright Thought Experiment"? which does a lot to illustrate how hard it is to answer Topazg's questions.

If you still want more, you could also read "What Do Copyright/Theft Analogies Really Illustrate" by him.