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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #201 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:39 pm 
Gosei
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JeansebL wrote:
Bantari wrote:
Still, what goes through my mind is - how will Kaya.go compete?
I mean... I don't mind supporting it because it is a good idea, but why should I play there? I bet I am not alone asking this.
Go servers are like bars. Nobody wants to sit in a bar alone, so people go where people are. But how to get the initial people in?


Well, I believe that being able to give video/audio teaching games, with any account, is more than enough to convince most teachers out there to use Kaya. Some teachers have many students, and these students have friends...

Moreover, there are 65 contributors right now, and they will definitely play on the server. It's also possible to imagine that these contributors will invite their friends etc... Some of them (like me) are tournament organizers, and they will definitely broadcast on kaya when it becomes available.

Finally, did you look at the feedback section? There are many new planned features, and many of them are not available on any other server.

There will be players on the server, a lot of players.


I admire your zeal.
Wish you all the best.
I am sure you have enough students to make a not-even-released server a major hit overnight!
All the best to you and may you live long and prosper!

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #202 Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:43 pm 
Gosei
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Kaya.gs wrote:
Much like anything social. That is a challenge every current server went through and many others have failed to do.
We have plans on how to get critical mass, which is enough to play. We expect that when we get enough players to make the place able to get a game, and we have more features, the users will flow more naturally.


Well... let me know how I can help.
I am not thrilled about your business plan, but I acknowledge that you do seem to have a plane, even if you're not sharing. To me, personally, each new idea is a good idea, until it fails... I am not in a position now to donate, but If you want a link on my website, lemme know - I like the way you think!

There is room out there for all kinds...
... and that is what makes life interesting!

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #203 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:33 am 
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Rating system: i want to implement an ELO system, very much like Wbaduk and Tygem and most Asian servers. I will make it so that the first set of games define the rank like KGS does which i think is the only advantage of the system.
So a few games to get a solid rank quickly, and then a transparent point based system.
...
KGS rating system has some disadvantages, the main one being that accounts get "heavy", hence people always have multiple accounts. Wbaduk, for example, poeple never make more than 1 account. But it still a drag that when you are close to rank up, you have to play way more many games.

Actually I think the KGS rating system is the best out there. The disadvantage you mention - the "inertia" of a rating that doesn't keep up with changes - comes from the parameters chosen by KGS, not from the algorithm. Recent results need to have a higher weight than older results. I think they already do on KGS, but the weight given to older games needs to decrease faster. Just a parameter change.

Really, the only thing I dislike about KGS is its failure to deal with escapers. If there were a server out there that was exactly like KGS, except that it had the same way of dealing with people who leave games as IGS (say), I'd switch in a heartbeat and I think a lot of other KGS users would, too.

I don't understand why you dislike Java implementations. OK, users have to download a client, but so what? Java clients (like KGS and the new IGS) work in all environments, unlike the Wbaduk and some other clients which are Microsoft-specific.

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #204 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 2:19 am 
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Nostromo wrote:
I don't understand why you dislike Java implementations. OK, users have to download a client, but so what? Java clients (like KGS and the new IGS) work in all environments, unlike the Wbaduk and some other clients which are Microsoft-specific.

Becouse this old myth about java isnt true? If you want to target now mobile devices for all 2.5major platforms, even C#(with MonoTouch help) is better solution than java on client side. So Kaya.gs decision on client side technology is correct with only 1 client developer. And for OpenKaya it is easier to get free help from html5/JavaScript ppl than from more specialized developers.

It is different situation than few yers ago and writing new server with high scalability without using overpriced closed technology/frameworks is much easier and expenses on SW part can be zero without functionality loss.

I have more problems with their Ruby choice for all server code works in case of big success( i think Erlang was better choice for their planned features and number of concurrenr users) but at least their other revealed choices seems correct.

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #205 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 5:08 am 
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Xyiana wrote:
If you want to target now mobile devices for all 2.5major platforms, even C#(with MonoTouch help) is better solution than java on client side.

I don't regard C#/Mono as a solution at all, because as a user of the client, I don't want to be restricted to the platforms which you (or anyone else) think are among the "2.5 major ones". Java is available for at least 4 platforms.

Quote:
I have more problems with their Ruby choice for all server code works in case of big success( i think Erlang was better choice for their planned features and number of concurrenr users) but at least their other revealed choices seems correct.

The best choice for the server code is whichever programming language the developer is most comfortable with. It doesn't impact the users.

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #206 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:21 am 
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Nostromo wrote:
I don't regard C#/Mono as a solution at all, because as a user of the client, I don't want to be restricted to the platforms which you (or anyone else) think are among the "2.5 major ones". Java is available for at least 4 platforms.

If you count iOS as one of major GO platforms(and i think it is) java client is simply bad choice. My opinion is that GO future on computers is with mobile platforms clients and for this atm are both html/javascript or platforms like c#/mono much better choice than mobile platform restricted java.

Nostromo wrote:
The best choice for the server code is whichever programming language the developer is most comfortable with. It doesn't impact the users.

Best luck with Ruby scaling during rly heavy concurrent usage. But you are right that with real concurrency estimates for first year of Kaya, choice of server language doesnt matter :D Thats why i wrote "in case of big success".

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #207 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:22 am 
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Nostromo wrote:
Quote:
Rating system: i want to implement an ELO system, very much like Wbaduk and Tygem and most Asian servers. I will make it so that the first set of games define the rank like KGS does which i think is the only advantage of the system.
So a few games to get a solid rank quickly, and then a transparent point based system.
...
KGS rating system has some disadvantages, the main one being that accounts get "heavy", hence people always have multiple accounts. Wbaduk, for example, poeple never make more than 1 account. But it still a drag that when you are close to rank up, you have to play way more many games.

Actually I think the KGS rating system is the best out there. The disadvantage you mention - the "inertia" of a rating that doesn't keep up with changes - comes from the parameters chosen by KGS, not from the algorithm. Recent results need to have a higher weight than older results. I think they already do on KGS, but the weight given to older games needs to decrease faster. Just a parameter change.

Really, the only thing I dislike about KGS is its failure to deal with escapers. If there were a server out there that was exactly like KGS, except that it had the same way of dealing with people who leave games as IGS (say), I'd switch in a heartbeat and I think a lot of other KGS users would, too.

I don't understand why you dislike Java implementations. OK, users have to download a client, but so what? Java clients (like KGS and the new IGS) work in all environments, unlike the Wbaduk and some other clients which are Microsoft-specific.


Javascript runs in all environments, so if your preference for Java is its support from all envs, we have that covered.

More than that, the whole idea of an application you have to download has way more friction and secrecy than a webclient.

Picture the following 2 scenarios with the way pretty much all major servers work today:

1) You talk to a go player that is not tech savyy. You tell him to go to a server to play go. The series of steps he has to do before he starts a game is astounding.
a) go to the page
b) download client
c) log in as a guest
Now he sees an entirely new thing he doesnt know how to use, that has no "start game" or anything of the sort.
d) look for someone to help him/assist him into starting a game
As opposed to-
a) Got to the page
b) log in with a form any browser user in the world would understand
c) enter and be able to play a game a click away

2) Another classical example is that you want to share a game being played with someone. "MilanMilan is playing", "they are relaying a pro game", "check out the game i just played"
All those things have enormous friction to share, as the other person has to potentially install cgoban to enter, and look for it.
With a web client, you just share a link. The other user clicks on it, and he is there. Only 1 step.

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #208 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 6:57 am 
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Kaya.gs wrote:
Javascript runs in all environments, so if your preference for Java is its support from all envs, we have that covered.

More than that, the whole idea of an application you have to download has way more friction and secrecy than a webclient.

Picture the following 2 scenarios with the way pretty much all major servers work today:
(....)
With a web client, you just share a link. The other user clicks on it, and he is there. Only 1 step.

You make some very good points. OK, a Javascript solution does have some compelling advantages.

The only other drawback that comes immediately to mind is that a big Javascript solution has to be downloaded every time the user visits the web page. It's all transparent to the users of course, they don't even know it's happening. But if there's a lot of Javascript (and for the level of functionality you're aiming at, there will be), the page could be a bit slow to load. In these days of high-speed internet connections, I guess it will be a small (and decreasing) problem.

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #209 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:41 am 
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Nostromo wrote:
Kaya.gs wrote:
Javascript runs in all environments, so if your preference for Java is its support from all envs, we have that covered.

More than that, the whole idea of an application you have to download has way more friction and secrecy than a webclient.

Picture the following 2 scenarios with the way pretty much all major servers work today:
(....)
With a web client, you just share a link. The other user clicks on it, and he is there. Only 1 step.

You make some very good points. OK, a Javascript solution does have some compelling advantages.

The only other drawback that comes immediately to mind is that a big Javascript solution has to be downloaded every time the user visits the web page. It's all transparent to the users of course, they don't even know it's happening. But if there's a lot of Javascript (and for the level of functionality you're aiming at, there will be), the page could be a bit slow to load. In these days of high-speed internet connections, I guess it will be a small (and decreasing) problem.


From a technical stand point, it will load faster than Cgoban does.
But also, unchanged javascript gets cached by the browsers, so after a single loading it already becomes super fast.

Also, the final form of the javascripts afte rbeing minified and compressed is very small. Again, not an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #210 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:09 am 
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Nostromo wrote:
Really, the only thing I dislike about KGS is its failure to deal with escapers. If there were a server out there that was exactly like KGS, except that it had the same way of dealing with people who leave games as IGS (say), I'd switch in a heartbeat and I think a lot of other KGS users would, too.

its not a failure. it does deal with them. it just deals with them differently than IGS. IGS is an immediate loss, whereas KGS allows players to resume, otherwise a delayed loss.

you have a great attitude towards sandbaggers. why not take the same attitude against escapers?

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #211 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:50 am 
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Kaya.gs:

so, how's it going? i am really cheering for you, but i feel it is about a time to show people some progress / to announce some reasonable opening date or something. most players i know have heard about you and are looking forward to the new server, but i think you should give them some new info occasionally, to keep their attention

maybe some progress bar on your website would be nice, like:

[example]
rating system: done
time systems: done
scoring: in progress (ETA: 1 week)
design: in progress (ETA: 2 weeks)
another thing: to do
yet another thing: to do
[/example]

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #212 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:49 am 
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Yeah, at least for the ones that has contributed there should be someting.

/Mats

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #213 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:03 am 
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There *is* a contributor only blog on kaya.gs.

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #214 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:22 am 
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mw42 wrote:
There *is* a contributor only blog on kaya.gs.


And are they doing anything?

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #215 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:32 am 
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mw42 wrote:
There *is* a contributor only blog on kaya.gs.

I guess my contribution was too small to get access to that then?

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #216 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:52 am 
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oren wrote:
mw42 wrote:
There *is* a contributor only blog on kaya.gs.


And are they doing anything?


There have been two posts in the last week. As it is supposed to be a private blog, I'll be vague. Some posts have pictures showing measurable progress, and others are simply stories about the development.

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #217 Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:37 am 
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mohsart wrote:
mw42 wrote:
There *is* a contributor only blog on kaya.gs.

I guess my contribution was too small to get access to that then?

If you donated and you're not allowed the progress updates that is pretty sad. My guess is this is not the case -- you should message the admins for access.

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #218 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:31 am 
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mohsart wrote:
mw42 wrote:
There *is* a contributor only blog on kaya.gs.

I guess my contribution was too small to get access to that then?



I'm sure i sent you the invite mohsart as i used all the emails from the payments. As many , you probably got the invite in spam.

Send me a pm/email with the email address you want to access the blog and ill send you an invite.

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #219 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:44 am 
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Laman wrote:
Kaya.gs:

so, how's it going? i am really cheering for you, but i feel it is about a time to show people some progress / to announce some reasonable opening date or something. most players i know have heard about you and are looking forward to the new server, but i think you should give them some new info occasionally, to keep their attention

maybe some progress bar on your website would be nice, like:

[example]
:b1: rating system: done
time systems: done
scoring: in progress (ETA: 1 week)
design: in progress (ETA: 2 weeks)
another thing: to do
yet another thing: to do
[/example]


I did give someupdates in another thread, the one announcing OpenKaya. http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4720. Although that post is pretty old already.

I post to the blog about twice a week, announcing our short-term goals and what we have been achieving. For example yesterday we finished the replay bot.
The replay bot fetches the latest games from GoKifu and broadcasts them on Kaya with a reasonable fix timespan to allow observers to comment on the game and share the experience of studying pro games.

It was a great feat because not only it looks awesome, it is a service that goes through every part of the arquitecture: the bot works absolutely separate from the server, so it can run in any computer. As such, it is an example of the interface to make a bot that runs with Gnugo or other computers, which will be available and will be able to run separate from the server.


As i also announced on the private blog, we are building a video-demo which we will finish within the span of a week. This video is meant to be used to show the current state of the server and show some of the features that make it special. I plan to show it to a lot of people in Korea, to get support, coverage, and maybe even volunteers.

The reason why i dont show pictures publicly was made clear in the blog too but i'll repeat it here. The graphical design is barely starting this week, so most things are just barely organized on the paying page. As such it of course doesnt live to the standard of the prototype (which is what our designer is now molding into our server) and it would be a dis-service to let people think the server will look as it looks now.

To answer your example point by point

rating system: Yoyoma's implementation of Glicko is done and implemented in the server. Although i wish to work a little more and allow blitz-rating and normal rating.

time systems: Clocks are synched and working on the board. Right now we only have Absolute time, and we plan to support all time's KGS + Fischer, Bronstein, and other fun ones like Hourglass , etc. This part is available in OpenKaya, so anyone that wants to implement a timing system can do so.

scoring: Right out of the oven. Polly finished the inclusion of the algorithm, and some other functionality like recognizing entire groups of dead stones, much like kgs does. There is still work left into making the score agreement between players: the only remaining thing left for the server to be fully playable.

design: in progress. We are making a first version for the demo this very week. Our star designer (the one that made the prototype) is on vacation so we had to compromise on the amount of work we are doing today. But after he gets back, design is top priority.

Ok, thats enough :).

I hope this addresses your concerns.

mohsart, im sorry you didnt get the invite, if you ever have any concern just email me or pm me here and i will answer.

Regards, Gabriel.

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 Post subject: Re: A new server is being developed: Kaya.gs
Post #220 Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:49 am 
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Kaya.gs wrote:
As i also announced on the private blog, we are building a video-demo which we will finish within the span of a week. This video is meant to be used to show the current state of the server and show some of the features that make it special.


Cool! When will we be able to see this video?

Do you have a date for alpha yet?

Greetings,
Jokep

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