what is the ASR doing wrong?

[golem7]

Let me suggest something rather controversial. As topazg said, people are more dedicated when they invest something. So why not add a small monetary investment?

Here is how it could work: You have to pay a small entrance fee when you join the ASR and you get it back when you sign out (note: not drop out). It could be as low as 1€/1$. If you don't play the minimum amount of games and drop out, the money stays with the ASR and can be used for example to purchase lessons/prizes for league winners/promotions. I imagine this would lower the dropout rate significantly while also adding a nice bonus for stronger/more active players.

The drawback is that it would probably also lead to fewer players actually signing on as investing money is a big (mental) hurdle. There could also be some trouble if players really have problems finding opponents to play, e.g. because of time zone differences.
On the other hand, I believe that the players that do sign on will be more committed and so it will actually be easier finding games since there won't be as many inactive players in the leagues.

I got the idea because I used to play poker regularly with some friends where we used a 1€ starting fee per person which would be paid out to the winner, second place and sometimes third, depending on the number of players. It doesn't really hurt when you lose while also raising the competitive spirit of the game.

So why not make a poll to find out whether the ASR community would be willing to take such a step?

[stalkor]

monetizing the ASR is not something we aim for, we feel the league should _always_ be free.

we have some ideas surrounding the league we might be able to ask money for but its vague and i would rather not go into it at this moment.

[Knotwilg]

Apparently I'm on the small side of the poll. Here are my (largely anecdotal) arguments:

1. I don't have a problem finding games in Delta VI. In fact, I already have foregone 2 occasions to play because I just didn't feel mentally up to it. I want to take the league seriously and currently I can. And I'm not online all the time.
2. If Delta merges to one big pot, I don't see the difference with the English room. I came here to find a controlled, respectable environment where I could be assured a long game did not go to waste. In a big opaque group, that feeling of mutual trust can easily vanish. With 26 people there is social control. "Oh yeah, know that guy, never mind him.
3. I saw the name of a notorious flamer among the ASR league members. It doesn't fill me with confidence that ASR will allow me to avoid the morons who regularly ruin online play.
4. Maybe with the current members you will not fall into the hyperactivity trap. But you might attract more of those.

I like the cosiness of a class of 26 people and I'm looking forward to proceed to gamma, based on a decent winning rate.

Oh, and ever thought of organizing the delta classes according to time zones?

[golem7]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all against monetizing. The point of the idea was that the ASR will still be completely free (under the reasonable condition that you announce your withdrawal beforehand). The ideal effect of this measure would be that every player in the league is active and so no one loses a dime. A clear win-win!

Of course I can't say for sure it'd work. I also completely understand your feelings. I probably would be thrown off by such an announcement myself. But if I think it through it seems like a fine and fair deal. After all, the least you can do to support the people who are working hard to keep this project going is to inform them that you are quitting so that they can plan properly for the next month (By the way, you can only drop out after you've already joined and therefore profited from the ASR). I also admit that I've been guilty of dropping out once in the past. Maybe a buck in the pot would have kept me going? But even if not, it would still have served to soothe my conscience for leaving without notice.

It would be interesting to hear some opinions from active ASR players on this matter.

[ez4u]

Don't get me wrong, I'm all against monetizing. The point of the idea was that the ASR will still be completely free (under the reasonable condition that you announce your withdrawal beforehand). The ideal effect of this measure would be that every player in the league is active and so no one loses a dime. A clear win-win!

Of course I can't say for sure it'd work. I also completely understand your feelings. I probably would be thrown off by such an announcement myself. But if I think it through it seems like a fine and fair deal. After all, the least you can do to support the people who are working hard to keep this project going is to inform them that you are quitting so that they can plan properly for the next month (By the way, you can only drop out after you've already joined and therefore profited from the ASR). I also admit that I've been guilty of dropping out once in the past. Maybe a buck in the pot would have kept me going? But even if not, it would still have served to soothe my conscience for leaving without notice.

It would be interesting to hear some opinions from active ASR players on this matter.

I am not an active ASR member but I would be interested in injecting a question here. Would you volunteer to undertake the administration of such money: collecting, keeping, and non-anonymously guaranteeing the return of said money to a couple of hundred people around the world? I can only imagine this as quite a (thankless) task. What do you think?

[zybex86]

I agree to make one big class - it will be more interesting with a big class and easier to find players to play

[stalkor]

Apparently I'm on the small side of the poll. Here are my (largely anecdotal) arguments:

1. I don't have a problem finding games in Delta VI. In fact, I already have foregone 2 occasions to play because I just didn't feel mentally up to it. I want to take the league seriously and currently I can. And I'm not online all the time.
2. If Delta merges to one big pot, I don't see the difference with the English room. I came here to find a controlled, respectable environment where I could be assured a long game did not go to waste. In a big opaque group, that feeling of mutual trust can easily vanish. With 26 people there is social control. "Oh yeah, know that guy, never mind him.
3. I saw the name of a notorious flamer among the ASR league members. It doesn't fill me with confidence that ASR will allow me to avoid the morons who regularly ruin online play.
4. Maybe with the current members you will not fall into the hyperactivity trap. But you might attract more of those.

I like the cosiness of a class of 26 people and I'm looking forward to proceed to gamma, based on a decent winning rate.

Oh, and ever thought of organizing the delta classes according to time zones?

i have to be very clear here and say that delta VI is exceptional in comparison to ALL other delta classes. Why? Its a combination of things i think, but what is truly different to delta VI is that it consists of ONLY new players. What i do know is that they are ALL from different timezones and almost all of them played a game. So my guess is that we found a bunch of truly motivated players and this is RARE somehow in delta.

Also i would like to point out the following thing why i think delta is pretty inactive.

Consider all delta has 15 of 30 active players and all gamma have 15 of 20 active players.

In gamma the 5 who demote to gamma have played only 5 games on average, they go to delta.
In delta the most active players players rise up to gamma while the worst promoting player (no 7) played around 7 games.

You end up with the 5 almost not performing gamma and the 8 not active enough players in delta which both got a mental hit for either demoting or not promoting. That 13 demotivated players who play on avg 5 games a month!! Will they play again next month?? Imo unlikely.

To get back at the 1 dollar motivation, a transaction costs money (2 percent or smth) so you can never be fully reimbursed, also if you do this i am suddenly a organisation and this comes with a ton of stupid taxes and so on.

[ez4u]

I "liked" this post, but I also just liked it. I think the best opportunities to improve the league experience will arise when those who know the league best really put their minds to thinking about what has happened up to now and what it means. What really drives the experience that people have throughout the different levels, etc.? People like me, with no real experience, can drop by and spout off, but it is the admins and players who have been deeply involved over the life of the league that have the best background for analyzing the experience to date. There are quite a lot of posts with suggestions, but there is not much real analysis. Each individual's experience is different. It is hard work, but I think necessary, to accept that some people have had a great experience while others have had a poor experience, and then try to work out how to preserve the great experiences while introducing changes aimed at improving the poor experiences. I do not think there is an easy solution (despite my user name! ). It is a matter of finding the right balance. It can only come from some real insight into how the league works. Thanks stalkor!

[usagi]

Let me suggest something rather controversial. As topazg said, people are more dedicated when they invest something. So why not add a small monetary investment?

I don't think the ASR was ever something that was about money. A league with a membership fee would look /very/ different than the ASR. Just me personally, I actually like it "free". There are paid leagues out there if you are interested, I would suggest Breakfast's league, it's an excellent paid league on KGS with pro and 8d+ teachers.

[stalkor]

ok now im seriously scared of the following conversation i had with a league member:

stalkor: yep looks like one big group is the outcome
AOA: I am asking because in all honesty, I so like this idea of a huge group that if it's the case I want to request to not be promoted to gamma
stalkor: gonna look ugly but oh well
AOA: I want to experiment this
stalkor: you will be promoted if you are in the promotion zone
AOA: well,
AOA: it is my right to request that otherwise I'll just rejoin on another account
AOA: your call
AOA: I decide what I do

this is a part, not the full convo but this seriously is something i cannot allow EVER (see eternal beta's thread)

[ez4u]

My reaction is - don't worry about it in advance. There are two outcomes more or less. First, it turns out not to be a big issue in practice. In that case worrying turns out to be simply a waste of time. Second, there turns out to be a significant block of players that are active/successful enough in big delta to be promoted but find the experience in the current class structure unsatisfactory to the point that they will not accept promotion. To my way of thinking there is then an opportunity to use that feedback to tweak the higher classes until it is possible to have both the entry level and the higher classes provide a satisfying and attractive experience for everyone. However, the time to consider that is once it clearly happens so that there is real information to use if appropriate. One step at a time!

"It is a mistake to look too far ahead. Only one link in the chain of destiny can be handled at a time."
- Winston Churchill

[ez4u]

Is there enough information available to chart some typical "life cycles" within the ASR? There is obviously a large group that signs up in delta and then fails to play enough games to continue. Are there other typical paths, e.g.:
* Players that come into delta, play enough to continue, but never score enough to get promoted.
* Players that go steadily up through the classes, peak at some point, and settle in for a long stay in the same class.
* Players that go steadily up through the classes, peak at some point, and then drop out all at once/fall back through the classes.

Do we know whether some paths are extremely common or does the ASR tend to be unique for each person?

[stalkor]

if i think about it i cant see a particular standard pattern, its all different.

We have the standard sign up and never play again.
The play, get promoted but then doesnt play anymore (for some reason ppl don't get that if you promote, you are playing next month. Also ''forgetting'' to tell ''i quit'' is common too )
the slow riser.
The infinite gamer who only stops playing go to crash into bed or worse.
The disapearer who is very active but doesnt tell he is on vacation for a month hence signing up a month later again.

Did i miss one? Probably:p

[jts]

if i think about it i cant see a particular standard pattern, its all different.

We have the standard sign up and never play again.
The play, get promoted but then doesnt play anymore (for some reason ppl don't get that if you promote, you are playing next month. Also ''forgetting'' to tell ''i quit'' is common too )
the slow riser.
The infinite gamer who only stops playing go to crash into bed or worse.
The disapearer who is very active but doesnt tell he is on vacation for a month hence signing up a month later again.

Did i miss one? Probably:p

Can you freeze your ASR division for vacation?

[stalkor]

not exactly freeze and we don't do it most of the time unless you really are away over a month.

what we do is that for every month you are away you are treated as if you are the last person in that class (without being visible) so you are demoted for every month you are away. So it only applies to alpha and beta since if youre in gamma, youre in delta anyway next month.

I've done it once or twice over the last 3 months, so its not common. This is reasonably ok to do on a small scale because:

- another player gets promoted in his place for that month (more activity)
- adding the vacation player a month later adds only 1 to a class extra (so class size +1) which is not a big deal.