Guess-the-next-move!

prokofiev · Post by **prokofiev** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 7:47 am

Yes, good call Dusk Eagle.

Here's a brief attempt to come up with why my last post was wrong. Any comments welcome! (Nothing on the current move yet.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . 7 . X 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . 5 4 6 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . 9 8 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . X O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . X O O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . X O X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . 3 2 O X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . b . 5 4 1 X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 6 . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

(7 around a or b.) I guess this is good for black? Letting white capture those stones and connect into the center may be bad, though?

Dusk Eagle · Post by **Dusk Eagle** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:20 pm

Did you see my suggestion in my previous post prokofiev?

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:27 pm

Dusk Eagle wrote:Did you see my suggestion in my previous post prokofiev?

$$Bcm20 potentially at 'a'
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 a . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20 potentially at 'a' $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 a . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now looks awful .

your suggestion doesnt make sense because white will play as below.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm20 potentially at 'a' $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . 4 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . 6 , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:25 pm

In the continuation below, it looks like the cut :w8:

can be handled by the peep :b9:

. Next B either captures the cutting stone in a geta, or if W defends (capturing three B stones), B pushes through and secures a large territory on top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . 7 X 2 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 9 . 5 4 6 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . 8 X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

gogameguru · Post by **gogameguru** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 5:09 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

topazg gets it

. So the next question is, how's black going to help the top group while minimising the damage?

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:54 pm

Too hard to say for me. This is the sort of position I'm sure I would never play like a professional would.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . 4 1 X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . X 2 3 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . a , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . B O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

and

could be really aji-keshi, as they probably aren't big enough to respond to (ok, I'm talking about :b33:

here,

needs a response, but even if :b33:

was directly at :b31:

I'm not completely convinced White would respond unless there was a serious corner kill threat, which I don't think there is).

:b35:

is the obvious "get your group out move" to me, so maybe that's :b31:

? The reason I'd suggest the sequence above is to make "a" less of a threat against the marked Black stones, but it may well be unnecessary, and losing sente here without completely settling your group in the process feels too slow for Black.

prokofiev · Post by **prokofiev** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:24 pm

Thanks Dusk Eagle, Magicwand, mitsun for the comments. Dusk Eagle, I did see your comment, but was apparently too dense to realize it was suggested as a refutation. :oops:

Probably means I should think more about kikashi. Certainly these posts have been instructive on that topic.

gogameguru · Post by **gogameguru** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:02 pm

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, similar to what topazg said, but with a gentler approach towards aji and ko threats.

By the way, why are you other observers letting topazg hog the limelight? ;-)

I want to hear your guesses too! And you may well learn more by committing to a move.

Some of you might be amused to read that at 31, the commentary say black was "probably disgusted with himself at this stage".

gogameguru · Post by **gogameguru** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 9:16 pm

Some commentary from earlier in the game:

As gaius touched on earlier, the commentator says black should play 21 and so on. I thought I'd show their suggested continuation because it's quite educational.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm20 (black 27 threatens 'c') $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . 0 . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 8 O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . c 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O 2 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . 4 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Continuing...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm30 Black gets a key point at 35 as part of the flow of play. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 O 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . W . . . X 1 X 3 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . 2 X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . W . . . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . X O O X O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . b . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Unlike the game, if 'a' then 'b' and black is fine.

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:26 am

I can't see any benefit in playing locally right now. White can only make a gote live group on the edge, and Black's going to connect anyway, so I reckon tenuki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Between

and "a", I choose :w32:

because I think Black's thicker on the right, making the corner slightly more urgent to approach. If pincer, standard stuff I guess:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X 5 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . 6 4 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Magicwand · Post by **Magicwand** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:38 am

there is no need to play on top anymore...

japanese players did not like complication during that time..
so next logical choice for white is either a or b

if i had a choice ...i would choose "a"

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm31 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:32 am

gogameguru · Post by **gogameguru** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:36 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm32 White forces at 32. So what's coming next? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . X . X . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . O X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:52 am

gogameguru · Post by **gogameguru** » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:13 am

@Daniel

Life In 19x19

Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

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Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!

Re: Guess-the-next-move!