Me and my roomate played a game and in review this position came up. My opinion is that it's favorable for white, while he smugly remarked he'd "take black all day". It almost came to blows. Please settle this argument for us.
Do you prefer black or white on this board?
The board:
http://i.imgur.com/3SJZh.jpg
EDIT: Black has sente.
Settle this argument for me
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Settle this argument for me
It is close, but if I had to choose, I'd take black. There are weak stones and cutting points all over, but the fights that evolve from those will tend to bump into black influence. So I regard black's influence as at least equal to white's territory. If black has the move and some unspecified komi, I'll take black.
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Settle this argument for me
I was going to say white, but with the last move as marked I'm not sure I trust white to win this. It's still a game, but I feel like black has to work a little harder to make it happen. If white breaks in or lives it's pretty much over. It's a high-risk strategy for black.
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Re: Settle this argument for me
Araban wrote:White, because a 6k does not know how to manage a framework like that.
It might not make a difference, but he's a bit stronger than 6 kyu. More like 4 kyu.
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SoDesuNe
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Re: Settle this argument for me
Although White has obviously ignored to answer in some funny situations (top right), I'd take White as well.
Of course the framework is really big and it's Black's turn but Black can't enclose his center with one move. Point is, I would screw up as Black but I'm a lot more confident with White's position : D
Of course the framework is really big and it's Black's turn but Black can't enclose his center with one move. Point is, I would screw up as Black but I'm a lot more confident with White's position : D
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Laman
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Re: Settle this argument for me
it is not a clear cut. i suppose white is objectively better with his cash and black's insecure moyo. but i would be personally tempted to take black, because i like moyos. and being 4k or 1d like me, you can easily make 10-15 point mistakes, so choose whatever fits you
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I might be wrong, but probably not.
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daal
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Re: Settle this argument for me
KGO wrote:It almost came to blows.
Looks like the only way to settle the argument.
Patience, grasshopper.
Re: Settle this argument for me
daal wrote:KGO wrote:It almost came to blows.
Looks like the only way to settle the argument.
I believe I will be victorious in this regard.
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EdLee
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Re: Settle this argument for me
It's difficult to judge because white has many solid points which is good. But since black has sente, white's right side looks a bit thin and I like to attack, I favor black starting with s14. If he can chase around white's right side group, he should be able to solidify a nice amount of territory on the top and lower side.
ps: also white's last move has a negative feeling to it, very slow and passive, maybe better at n17?
ps: also white's last move has a negative feeling to it, very slow and passive, maybe better at n17?
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Jedo
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Re: Settle this argument for me
Araban wrote:White, because a 6k does not know how to manage a framework like that.
Doesn't it make more sense to judge the board objectively without knowledge of the players?
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Solomon
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Re: Settle this argument for me
In a lot of cases, yeah. However I feel this is a situation where knowledge of the players' strength does play a role due to the difficulty of properly handling a moyo. I've seen a lot of kyu-level games where the player, when building a moyo, will run into situations where he'll either:Jedo wrote:Araban wrote:White, because a 6k does not know how to manage a framework like that.
Doesn't it make more sense to judge the board objectively without knowledge of the players?
1) Get too little; tries to turn it into territory and settle for much less than what he could get. The center is always bigger than it looks.
2) (Attempts to) get too much; tries unreasonably to kill an invading group when, if he had counted, he'd realize that sealing the group in and letting it live is good enough.
It's a fine line to tread between #1 and #2, and I just feel a kyu-level player does not know how to walk straight on this line.
Same sort of idea could apply for other things, not just Go. I'll use SC2 as an example since iirc you've played SC2 and could relate to this. Let's say someone posted a screenshot of an SC2 game, ZvP, he played with his buddy. In the screenshot I see the main battle is 30 stalkers with blink vs. 40 roaches, and whoever wins this engagement is pretty much going to win the game as the bases appear to be mined out.
If the person posted that this was between two silver-league players and asked me who was winning, I'd say the Zerg is winning. Why? Because I know a silver-league player doesn't have the ability to blink micro well enough while macroing and warping in units to win the battle. But if I was told this was between two GM-league players, I'd say the Protoss is winning because I know he can blink well enough to take out 40 roaches easily while macroing/reinforcing.
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Loons
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Re: Settle this argument for me
My advice is to never care at all about "winning" reviews. Just concentrate on clear mistakes you can address.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Settle this argument for me
Assuming no komi, or only 0.5 komi, put me in the toss-up camp. 
Even though I like outside thickness, this position looks good for White to me. Black has given up too much for his thickness, and has weaknesses.
However, White has erred by not playing at 1 with sente.
is huge, giving the edge back to Black. Now I think that White has to dive into Black's sphere of influence, do or die.
Even though I like outside thickness, this position looks good for White to me. Black has given up too much for his thickness, and has weaknesses.
However, White has erred by not playing at 1 with sente.
is huge, giving the edge back to Black. Now I think that White has to dive into Black's sphere of influence, do or die.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.