Scottish championship game

[Stable]

Hyperpape - what IS the most common continuation?

[Magicwand]

is what i would have played and many professionals will agree also.

[Javaness2]

I didn't really look at the game much, but Black 25 and White 24... well this sequence shows us that Black is ahead at this point.
After Black 73, Black has won.
Maybe you can find a way to turn around the game in between these moves?

[Bill Spight]

:w12: is what i would have played and many professionals will agree also.

I don't think that there is any disagreement about what to play after . The main question is about , whether tenuki is OK.

[Bill Spight]

I hate to spoil a good disputation, but I looked at Gobase and...

White 8 is by no means abnormal--I don't know if Bill meant to suggest it was bad, but it's not, unless pro opinion has changed drastically.

The high extension is not particularly common as a response, but the slide is even less common. Several older chinese games had white attaching to the bottom of the 44 point, making a low but very stable position.

Considering just the right side, you do see the position up to 12, but only in Japanese games before the mid-80s, and even then I only find six games from lesser players.

It is true that I do not care for , but I do not care for , either. I am aware that pros play , just looking at the right side. But I do not like it so early in the opening, for the reasons I gave. I also realize that when you distinguish early from late opening, you are unlikely to get consensus. That's why I just talked about how it feels.

[Bill Spight]

I did a whole board search of the GoGoD database (only through 2006, I am afraid). Here are the results:

$$W White 10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X b c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . f . . . . . , . . . . a , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W White 10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . g . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X b c . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . f . . . . . , . . . . a , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . e . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The heavy favorite was "a" (16x), then "b" (4x), "c" (3x), "d" (2x), "e" (2x), and "f" (1x), out of a total of 28 games. No votes for my suggestion, "g".

[Bill Spight]

Good. We clearly disagree here. I think that White can afford to approach the top right corner (after the one space jump) from the top side, leaving the possibility of the Black invasion on the right side, as long as the corner is still open. If Black protects the corner, then White can protect the right side, and be satisfied with having gotten the extension on the top side.

The thing is, if white doesn't take the slide, black gets to either make the diagonal attachment to white's stone, or the descent to 4x2. Either way, White must respond and becomes heavy, black already has a good stone in place on the other side, and then black can get an attack going, building up his framework in the lower right.

I think that's where we disagree, I don't think w has miai here. black can make white heavy. After the sequence in the game, black has no way to attack to build up his bottom right.

Database searches are interesting, but I don't think that they usually prove much, especially about the opening. However, I do think that they do provide a defense against the charge that White becomes heavy.

$$W White 10 = tenuki
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X . c . |
$$ . . . . b . . |
$$ . d . . O . . |
$$ . . e . . . . |
$$ . . . . a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W White 10 = tenuki
$$ --------------
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . X . X . c . |
$$ . . . . b . . |
$$ . d . . O . . |
$$ . . e . . . . |
$$ . . . . a . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , X . . |
$$ . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------[/go]

Using this search area, I found 93 games, 21 with Black moving next. So White tenukied at least 21 times. Black most often invaded at "a" (11x), followed by "b" (7x), then "c", "d" and "e" (1x each).

I do not think that pros would tenuki more than 20% of the time if it meant that White would become heavy.

[cyclops]

.......... His comment on White 72 is at least according to my reading correct, and of course upon seeing Black 73 White is hopeless. So even when you are not sure, how on earth can you defend? .........

To get the minutes right: this critics originates from mumps ( post #4 )

[tetron]

You don't have to write anything for the rank if you don't think you have an accurate one right now. But I have a feeling here that, while you are maybe not 5k, you are not strong enough to be certain about your criticism of a 1d-2d KGS game. That is not to say your criticism is strictly wrong, but an attitude of humility would go far.

I didn't really intend to join a Go forum at the moment, I only wanted to post a quick comment about WMSG, so didn't study what boxes were optional and then got drawn in...

I should have shown humility but it is not easy to think you can help a stronger player :sigh:

I have no problem with being judged at 5 kyu strength, as in, it indicates anyone with a higher ratings analysis should be given greater weight than mine.
But, IMHO, Comments should be judged on whether they are constructive, not overall playing strength. I probably failed on this point so far in this thread.

(Warning! I am about to fail to be humble :sorry: )
I intended to make an observation based upon my experience of the wide variety of games other than go that I have played, a few even at the top level.

I originally wanted to make a key psychological point rather than any technical points so I shouldn't really have made suggestions on specific moves. I was hoping to illustrate but instead distracted.
(I probably should have started with a question to the Original poster (OP) that I will pose shortly, but instead used my read on stable's thinking.)

I felt that when the OP was playing a group of moves with a purpose that on more than one occasion
he abandoned his plan far too easily.

In any competitive game you have to learn to trust your analysis and you should always play to win (or draw).

If your opponent plays a move that challenges your earlier evaluation and current plan, then, unless the situation is readable to an exact failed outcome, you must respond by one of the following:

1) start a contest to try to enforce your original evaluation
2) find a deep (or inspirational) combination trap that allows your current plan to continue to work
3) come-up with a radically new plan to win.

2) or 3) require at least 5 minutes concentrated thought and 1) would put black under the kind of pressure that was sadly lacking in this game.

In many instances, 1) will invovle a fight for the game. The discipline to read fights through is important
but trivial compared to the will not to yield your plan.

If your original evaluation told you that you should win a fight and it is impossible to win the game without winning this fight
then it is correct to follow this fight through to the bitter end.

On the occasions, in Go, that you lose by an extra 100+ points as a result of this fight. It is important to realise that the losing mistake
was either in your original plan, or evaulation (such as this group has 2 eyes) and this is what needs to be improved.

Without, learning these skills doubts can manifest at any level and you can often waste time thinking when there is no choice, only to find you needed the time later and no longer have it.


Question to stable:
What was your evaluation of strengths and weaknesses and plan to win in the position after ?

While it is not the biggest move in the game, I think this is the most useful analytical point in the game with regards planning.
I am confident at your probably had a reasonable plan to win at this stage which might be very different from what my plan would be but I don't think you committed to it strongly enough.

To me when I look at the outcome after the position looks almost hopeless and I picked on as the last chance to instigate 1).


How my go brain was working
I will foolishly follow-up on my more spurious comments where my shape recognition screamed at me but I am out of my depth to what should be done.

My comment on B13 is that I believe it is a move without a plan at a stage when a plan is critical and that is why I exageratedly described it as very poor.

I don't think that it achieves anything with regards a plan winning the game...

a) K17 is not close enough to the black corner group to be guaranteed connected.
So does it make the black top corner group strong enough to fight with impunity.
b) It is not near enough the top left corner to have a secure extension which attacks the corner and build territory at the same time.
c) Nor is it likely to be a particularly useful anchor or ladder break for a fight
or invasion that happens on the bottom or left of the board and is compartively small

I am not sure what the right move is in this spot there is so much open space on the left.
But it absolutlely has to have a long-term plan! A position this open would require a pro to find the biggest move.

To play L17 is much stronger.

I would personally probably try K3 it makes an extension that is further away from the white influence.
It strengthens a move such as P9 and if white attacks the top black group from underneath then as it extends it puts pressure on the white group on the right hand side.
so I can attack by extend the bottom left corner group. When combined with a group on the left hand side.

[Bill Spight]

How my go brain was working
I will foolishly follow-up on my more spurious comments where my shape recognition screamed at me but I am out of my depth to what should be done.

My comment on B13 is that I believe it is a move without a plan at a stage when a plan is critical and that is why I exageratedly described it as very poor.

I don't think that it achieves anything with regards a plan winning the game...

a) K17 is not close enough to the black corner group to be guaranteed connected.
So does it make the black top corner group strong enough to fight with impunity.
b) It is not near enough the top left corner to have a secure extension which attacks the corner and build territory at the same time.
c) Nor is it likely to be a particularly useful anchor or ladder break for a fight
or invasion that happens on the bottom or left of the board and is compartively small

I am not sure what the right move is in this spot there is so much open space on the left.
But it absolutlely has to have a long-term plan! A position this open would require a pro to find the biggest move.

To play L17 is much stronger.

I would personally probably try K3 it makes an extension that is further away from the white influence.
It strengthens a move such as P9 and if white attacks the top black group from underneath then as it extends it puts pressure on the white group on the right hand side.
so I can attack by extend the bottom left corner group. When combined with a group on the left hand side.

Out of curiosity I did some database searches of the GoGoD database that I have. (Through 2006). No pro game matched this one after . However, searching as much of the top, bottom, and left sides as permitted a match suggested possible moves for .

$$Bcm13
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . 1 1 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 1 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm13
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . 1 1 . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 1 1 . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The most popular choices were the corner approaches, followed by the extension to K-17, as in the game. The wedge and other extensions were also played. Note that J-04 and K-04 were preferred to J-03 and K-03.

[Stable]

Tetron, it seems pretty clear that I was already far behind by 45. Basically, I knew that I had to either kill the weak black group to be in a good position, or at the very least get a superb position as a result of attacking it that could help me elsewhere (although looking at it now that seems a bit optimistic), but as I was saying in a previous post, had I handled earlier situations better it would not be a problem.