Araban vs Magicwand II

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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Add me to the "not impressed by black's last few moves" crowd. My idea in this position would be to play on the outside-- to try and force white to play a move in there to live.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Araban wrote:... the only thing that's going to be happening here is reading and reading only.


I think that is the problem. Black seems over-focussed on the upper side and is reading out ways to win there. His last three moves have been two aji keshis and one 2nd rank move that does...uhhh :scratch:... errr...something useful...eventually...I think.
Meanwhile, white is thinking whole-board and has gotten a grip on a good portion of the lower left quarter of the board.

I think that black's best chance is to try to get P10 in sente as part of an attack, and then with something around Q7 he may be able to grab a large side. Maybe Araban has read out that general scheme and can force it. If he can do it and then get Q7 in sente I will be impressed.


I've got some reservations about MW's play at F3 too. I think that he would have been wiser to play at K3. He is leaving his lower right group to fend for itself.
If we assume that the developing fight in the upper right is going to roll southward, all Araban has to do is play M3 at the right time, and MW could have problems.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Example of the general flow that could turn bad for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , X . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . # . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now white is in trouble and F3 is too far away.
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Tooveli »

Joaz Banbeck wrote:I've got some reservations about MW's play at F3 too.

I think the reasoning behind F3 over K3 is that White's lower right group is fairly strong (so we don't play close) and White's lower right group is undercut (so we don't try and make territory on the bottom). I think F3 makes sense.

I agree completely on Black's previous moves though.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . 7 . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . 4 a . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . b . X . . 3 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Before seeing this last set of moves I was debating whether or not to make a post about the size of playing 4/a for White/Black respectively. I've had games reviewed by professionals where there was a move that affects the base of two (semi)-weak groups and in one:
"How can you play there - it's tiny - much better to run out into the centre"
and in the other:
"How could you not play there - it's huge - it affects the life and death of both groups"
Unfortunately I didn't understand the differences between the two games.
In this game I was leaning towards "it's huge" and would have been tempted to play 1 at a but have the uneasy feeling that I am completely misevaluating.

I think Black's problems stem from 1. Moves 1,3 and 5 seem inconsistent. 1 helped prevent the top left group from being surrounded and simultaneously strengthened the top middle (allowing b). With this group stronger I would have (also) expected 3 to be on the bottom (though I think maybe F3 is better for reasons above). However, 3 in the game strengthens the top group even more.

As Joaz said there's a kind of miai between playing at a/4 and jumping in the centre. I thought that 3 said "I think that the centre is the more important of the two and you can have the mutual base move." But then to answer 4 with 5 I don't understand. 3 can't be right if 4 was going to be sente.

Finally, I don't understand what 7 does at all. But anyway, that's all just my thoughts from casually spectating, I know Araban can beat me up. I'm looking forward to seeing how this attack goes.
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emeraldemon
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by emeraldemon »

@Magicwand:

What made you choose F3 instead of something like K3?
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Magicwand
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

emeraldemon wrote:@Magicwand:

What made you choose F3 instead of something like K3?

as i stated prior..i am ahead and i dont want any complications.
i choose most solid move i can find that will minimize the variations.
k3??? that is weak. i wouldnt play that move even if i was losing.
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Jedo »

to magicwand
With your last tenuki, did you consider something like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 2 . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And if not why not?
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

Jedo wrote:to magicwand
With your last tenuki, did you consider something like this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . 2 . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And if not why not?

never considered it.
because it does not do me any good by sealing black.
1. i lose very important sente.
2. my group is already secured.
3. no point gained and very little influence improved.
4. bottome is very important for both of us.

can you give me a good reason why you considered that move?
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The greater the unknown"
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Jedo »

to magicwand
What you say makes sense, but doesn't the bottom enclosure lose sente anyway? I guess the reason I though it was big was because these two boards seem very different to me:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . B . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . W . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But maybe it's not that big of a deal anyway?
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by yithril »

To people who are not impressed with Black's play, I have to respectfully disagree. I like his moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . 2 . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . 1 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This move does two things. It sets up an attack on White. His group is easily destabilized and this threatens his center eye. White will have to defend and keep himself small. He does this while simultaneously reducing White's lower right thickness. When Black eventually dives in the left side of the board he'll have some center control. White's upper left group is still in limbo. As the center becomes solid White might have to come back and defend in Gote, so splitting the two groups is big.

White 4 is the correct move. The bottom is not big with the bottom open at a, so the prime real estate is the corner territory, which this move does a good job of emphasizing.
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Magicwand
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

Jedo wrote:to magicwand
What you say makes sense, but doesn't the bottom enclosure lose sente anyway? I guess the reason I though it was big was because these two boards seem very different to me:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . B . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . W . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But maybe it's not that big of a deal anyway?

if he try to seal me as you said..then he will lose his sente. i can tenuki very comfortably.
IMO that is nogo.

reason why i feel i am ahead is because of his questionable moves that had no purpose.
you can not give your opponent sente for no reason and expect to win.
he had a chance to invade my bottom but didnt capatalize.
i tenukied and placed one more stone on the bottom..
that is only one stone but the difference is night and day.
i dont think you will see me fighting in this game. i will maintain that small(?) margin till the end and seal my win.
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The greater the unknown"
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Tooveli
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Tooveli »

yithril wrote:
To people who are not impressed with Black's play, I have to respectfully disagree. I like his moves.


Unless I've misunderstood you only explain why 1 is good (which I agree with assuming 2 isn't answered at the top). Why don't you think the following is better for Black? I can't see the value of L18.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . 2 . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . 1 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Magicwand
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

i dont see anything black can do to hurt me now.
but i just misread L&D of another game in ogs.
it is simple but i read it wrong and i thought my opponent was misreading... :(
maybe i misread below??

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . 4 X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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yithril
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by yithril »

Tooveli wrote:
yithril wrote:
To people who are not impressed with Black's play, I have to respectfully disagree. I like his moves.


Unless I've misunderstood you only explain why 1 is good (which I agree with assuming 2 isn't answered at the top). Why don't you think the following is better for Black? I can't see the value of L18.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . 2 . . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . 1 . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I feel it's a matter of keeping those two groups split and maintaining all aji. They're 2/3 alive, but I'd hate to miss an attack if the situation in the center changes. His move to go in between gives him good followups later, so White will have to keep an eye out and make sure his center doesn't get sealed off.

Your move might be a possibility.
Nein Mann, ich will noch nicht gehen, ich will noch 'n bisschen tanzen.
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Solomon
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Solomon »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O . 5 O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O , X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Sorry magicwand for being away, things came up in my personal life and the last thing on my mind was Go and L19.
Unless he makes a big mistake, my intent isn't to kill this group. Instead, I just want a piece of it, enough that it compensates for letting him move elsewhere twice.
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by jts »

@araban
How much of the group is enough?
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