Initiatives for a Professional System in the West

[HermanHiddema]

What would a professional system provide that is not currently available?

You could use that logic for any professional system. Like, NFL, NBA (ha ha), NHL, ect.

A professional event usually generates more excitement than an amateur event.

Are you going to watch Manchester United play Liverpool or Virginia Somethings battle the North Carolina Fuzzballs? Just an example.

Or you could look to Japan's Go scene which is dominated by news about Professional Go players.

I think the term "professional" creates excitement. Now, whether the USA is ripe for such a system at the moment is another debate. I won't argue with the fact that maybe we should put more emphasis on expanding the player base before trying to establish a "pro league" that could be doomed to fail due to the lack of a market for such a thing, but I think ultimately, having a professional system would be a major boost for Go in the USA.

Most professional systems come about naturally, because there is enough money available to support professional players.

Suppose the AGA decided to start a pro system, and decided that from now on, all players 6 dan or stronger receive some professional rank (say 2 pro ranks per amateur rating point or something like that). Would it add any value to the US Open, that those players now have 1p, 2p, 6p or 9p behind their name instead of 6d, 7d or 8d? They are the same players, the level of play did not improve at all, and there is no money to actually pay them anything. Such "pro" ranks are completely empty.

Creating a pro system just because you like the sound of the word "professional" is Cargo Cult thinking.

[HermanHiddema]

What would a professional system provide that is not currently available?

opportunity for top players to earn their living by go, thus allowing them to devote most of their time to it.

That does not require a professional system, that requires money. If enough money were available to pay top European amateurs a living wage, they could earn that money regardless of whether they call themselves 7d or 1p. Calling them professionals does not magically make money appear.

Creating a professional system without the money to support it is putting the cart before the horse. You need a financial base first, titles later, not the other way around.

[shapenaji]

Most professional systems come about naturally, because there is enough money available to support professional players.

Suppose the AGA decided to start a pro system, and decided that from now on, all players 6 dan or stronger receive some professional rank (say 2 pro ranks per amateur rating point or something like that). Would it add any value to the US Open, that those players now have 1p, 2p, 6p or 9p behind their name instead of 6d, 7d or 8d? They are the same players, the level of play did not improve at all, and there is no money to actually pay them anything. Such "pro" ranks are completely empty.

Creating a pro system just because you like the sound of the word "professional" is Cargo Cult thinking.

So in this case, it was the Korean Baduk Association's idea, it's not just an empty title, the pros would have the freedom to participate in pro-only tournaments in Korea as guests of the KBA.

[shapenaji]

Also, from what I understand, they're really only interested in young strong players, a rating cutoff wouldn't fly with them afaict

[HermanHiddema]

Most professional systems come about naturally, because there is enough money available to support professional players.

Suppose the AGA decided to start a pro system, and decided that from now on, all players 6 dan or stronger receive some professional rank (say 2 pro ranks per amateur rating point or something like that). Would it add any value to the US Open, that those players now have 1p, 2p, 6p or 9p behind their name instead of 6d, 7d or 8d? They are the same players, the level of play did not improve at all, and there is no money to actually pay them anything. Such "pro" ranks are completely empty.

Creating a pro system just because you like the sound of the word "professional" is Cargo Cult thinking.

So in this case, it was the Korean Baduk Association's idea, it's not just an empty title, the pros would have the freedom to participate in pro-only tournaments in Korea as guests of the KBA.

Admission to Asian tournaments is not a new thing. There have been western representatives playing in the Ing cup for years. And the fact is that they cannot compete. Even getting past the first round, just winning one game, is an exceptional performance.

I still don't see the added value in calling them professionals. If they are not strong enough to really compete with Asian pros, and they cannot earn a living wage from it in the US, then it is an empty title.

And those that are truly strong enough already have the option of becoming professional players in Asia, like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein did.

[hailthorn011]

Most professional systems come about naturally, because there is enough money available to support professional players.

Suppose the AGA decided to start a pro system, and decided that from now on, all players 6 dan or stronger receive some professional rank (say 2 pro ranks per amateur rating point or something like that). Would it add any value to the US Open, that those players now have 1p, 2p, 6p or 9p behind their name instead of 6d, 7d or 8d? They are the same players, the level of play did not improve at all, and there is no money to actually pay them anything. Such "pro" ranks are completely empty.

Creating a pro system just because you like the sound of the word "professional" is Cargo Cult thinking.

So in this case, it was the Korean Baduk Association's idea, it's not just an empty title, the pros would have the freedom to participate in pro-only tournaments in Korea as guests of the KBA.

Admission to Asian tournaments is not a new thing. There have been western representatives playing in the Ing cup for years. And the fact is that they cannot compete. Even getting past the first round, just winning one game, is an exceptional performance.

I still don't see the added value in calling them professionals. If they are not strong enough to really compete with Asian pros, and they cannot earn a living wage from it in the US, then it is an empty title.

And those that are truly strong enough already have the option of becoming professional players in Asia, like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein did.

What about people who can't afford a trip to another country? What about USA players who would like to have a professional status on their own soil? These are also things to consider.

I know I'm too old for any of these things to impact me (21, yeah.) but I still think it would be cool to have a pro system here in the states.

[gowan]

Why is it necessary to provide professional go players with enough money to maintain a living. A reasonable compensation at tournaments is all that is necessary. I think a pro league would add a lot to the game in the US. I would compare it to MLS vs EPL, even though its not as high level its still fun and promotes the game.

I think you've provided a great example here.

On another note, I think having a professional system in the USA would be a great boost for the community. I'd suggest that they start small. Create an annual tournament and try to find a sponsor for that one event. That shouldn't be too difficult. And have a yearly pro exam in which one has to perhaps pay a marginal entry fee. So, in essence, you could get some funding simply from the pro exams each year. I imagine a lot of players would be looking to participate each year.

But then you'd also have to make it to where the system doesn't become over-saturated, which could be tricky. Perhaps there could be a relegation system (like EPL) where if you finish at the bottom of the lowest tier in a year, you lose your professional ranking. The only problem there is, it doesn't really seem like you're a professional if you could lose your ranking.

Anyway, once you get the basic foundation out of the way, you could expand maybe to include another large annual tournament. I suppose this could be a title system, similar to what the East has.

Just an idea, though. I definitely know I'd be excited about the USA having a professional Go system.

I think people are forgetting history regarding pros in the USA. There used to be a professional association in the USA consisting of most of the pros (certified by the Asian pro go associations) residing in the USA but it degenerated into a political mess (Feng Yun 9p was not allowed to join) and is now defunct. In most respects there has long been an annual pro tournament in the USA, what used to be called the North American Masters tournament. There are a number of pros in Europe who are certified by the CJK pro associations. Maybe what is needed is just to find big corporate sponsors and organize a pro go association made up of "Western" pros that can function without dissolving in internal political strife.

[Laman]

opportunity for top players to earn their living by go, thus allowing them to devote most of their time to it.

That does not require a professional system, that requires money. If enough money were available to pay top European amateurs a living wage, they could earn that money regardless of whether they call themselves 7d or 1p. Calling them professionals does not magically make money appear.

Creating a professional system without the money to support it is putting the cart before the horse. You need a financial base first, titles later, not the other way around.

well, you are right, but it was not the part of my post i expected people to answer...

What about people who can't afford a trip to another country? What about USA players who would like to have a professional status on their own soil? These are also things to consider.

I know I'm too old for any of these things to impact me (21, yeah.) but I still think it would be cool to have a pro system here in the states.

however i share your enthusiasm, your view is a bit too simplistic. as of now, making our top players pros would be indeed only empty title. but i hope one day i will see a Western pro worth of the title

[Mef]

but it is unfortunately a bit like building a house from the roof.

While it may not necessarily be good to build a house down from the roof, if you are someone who has no house it's hard not to appreciate a tent (=

I think a western semi-pro league would be a good idea so long as they can find the backing for it. Obviously if we could the ideal scenario would involve greatly expanding the player base, but there's no reason starting a professional league would prevent that. I actually think a league to follow would be beneficial as a "hook" to keep new players involved. A professional league is something that people can talk about when they don't have a chance to play, it's something that can be used to "keep go fresh" in a player's mind after they just learn, or let them live vicariously through their favorite players achievements (even if they themselves are still learning the basics or don't know how to play). It won't be at the same level per se as the eastern pro organizations, but it doesn't need to be. I think a reasonable comparison would be any small town that supports its minor league sports teams. Also starting something, and showing that go can be a revenue source (via merchandising or whatever) helps start the ball rolling to becoming more attractive to mainstream sponsors.

[shapenaji]

Admission to Asian tournaments is not a new thing. There have been western representatives playing in the Ing cup for years. And the fact is that they cannot compete. Even getting past the first round, just winning one game, is an exceptional performance.

I still don't see the added value in calling them professionals. If they are not strong enough to really compete with Asian pros, and they cannot earn a living wage from it in the US, then it is an empty title.

And those that are truly strong enough already have the option of becoming professional players in Asia, like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein did.

As I have heard the plan, it looks something like this:

A US program scouts for talent (Myung-Wan Kim looks to be at the head of this).
The talented are sent to Korea for a year to train.
They return and become American pros, they continue to study and make occasional trips abroad for preliminaries.

The single year in Korea is the big part here, this way they maintain their connections to friends and family.

And this is no different than the way the Japanese gave Korea a leg up on the go scene. Korean pros started considerably weaker, but the Japanese would train them, and they would return to Korea.


I really don't get the default hostility to this idea. Korea is trying to re-enact the spread of go as it was brought to them. It's their deal, why not give it a chance?

And yes, the big 3 have invited a select few westerners to play in the big tournaments. This would open up more. Ing is the exception that proves the rule.

[HermanHiddema]

Admission to Asian tournaments is not a new thing. There have been western representatives playing in the Ing cup for years. And the fact is that they cannot compete. Even getting past the first round, just winning one game, is an exceptional performance.

I still don't see the added value in calling them professionals. If they are not strong enough to really compete with Asian pros, and they cannot earn a living wage from it in the US, then it is an empty title.

And those that are truly strong enough already have the option of becoming professional players in Asia, like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein did.

As I have heard the plan, it looks something like this:

A US program scouts for talent (Myung-Wan Kim looks to be at the head of this).
The talented are sent to Korea for a year to train.
They return and become American pros, they continue to study and make occasional trips abroad for preliminaries.

The single year in Korea is the big part here, this way they maintain their connections to friends and family.

And this is no different than the way the Japanese gave Korea a leg up on the go scene. Korean pros started considerably weaker, but the Japanese would train them, and they would return to Korea.


I really don't get the default hostility to this idea. Korea is trying to re-enact the spread of go as it was brought to them. It's their deal, why not give it a chance?

And yes, the big 3 have invited a select few westerners to play in the big tournaments. This would open up more. Ing is the exception that proves the rule.

I'm not hostile towards this idea, but I am trying to be realistic. Simply said, I think that it is a bad idea to call players "professionals" if they are weak players who cannot earn a living wage from go.

I applaud the Korean efforts in this respect, but I still don't see what the real difference is with what players like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein have done. They were strong, they went to Asia to study, they received a professional title from one of the Asian pro associations. The only difference here, it seems, is that the Hanguk Kiwon will not award these players a professional title directly, but will recommend that the AGA award that title.

[Mef]

I applaud the Korean efforts in this respect, but I still don't see what the real difference is with what players like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein have done. They were strong, they went to Asia to study, they received a professional title from one of the Asian pro associations. The only difference here, it seems, is that the Hanguk Kiwon will not award these players a professional title directly, but will recommend that the AGA award that title.

I believe the difference would be it's a formalized program, instead of an exceptional circumstance. In the last 40 years, the number of Western go professionals can be counted on your hands. If there is even 1 player per year to get through this program it will triple the rate western professionals are produced at.

[tapir]

If you grant someone a professional status, there will be (monetary) expectations, no?

Expect discussions about prize money allocation, a push for more prize money in general, teaching privileges, ...

[HermanHiddema]

I applaud the Korean efforts in this respect, but I still don't see what the real difference is with what players like Redmond, Taranu and Dinerchtein have done. They were strong, they went to Asia to study, they received a professional title from one of the Asian pro associations. The only difference here, it seems, is that the Hanguk Kiwon will not award these players a professional title directly, but will recommend that the AGA award that title.

I believe the difference would be it's a formalized program, instead of an exceptional circumstance. In the last 40 years, the number of Western go professionals can be counted on your hands. If there is even 1 player per year to get through this program it will triple the rate western professionals are produced at.

Those players that have made professional so far are generally those players that not only have the talent for it, but also the determination and self-confidence to move to Asia and study the game full time. Truly, I think that that, more than anything, is what it takes. Talent is great, but determination, self-confidence and a lot of hard work are what it really takes. And I don't think a year of study is is near enough to reach any serious level. If you want to progress, you need to constantly be challenged by other players of your own level or stronger.

And where do the players come from? Does the US go scene produce even one new young player per year with enough talent to make it that far? Will their parent approve of them moving to Korea for a year at a young age?

But suppose that happens, and in 10 years there are 10 new professionals from this program. Talented young players who have spent a year studying in Korea. Will they be able to seriously compete in international (or Korean) professional events? Will they be able to make a living from go in the US?

The west will need a serious boost in numbers, and a serious change in sponsor attitudes before there is enough money in the system to support an increasing number of professionals. You need to work it from the bottom up. Increase your player base, improve your youth programs, work on how go is perceived by parents, by sponsors, by society at large. And I do not think you can realistically skip those steps. Not if you want your pro system to be sustainable.

[Mef]

But suppose that happens, and in 10 years there are 10 new professionals from this program. Talented young players who have spent a year studying in Korea. Will they be able to seriously compete in international (or Korean) professional events? Will they be able to make a living from go in the US?

The west will need a serious boost in numbers, and a serious change in sponsor attitudes before there is enough money in the system to support an increasing number of professionals. You need to work it from the bottom up. Increase your player base, improve your youth programs, work on how go is perceived by parents, by sponsors, by society at large. And I do not think you can realistically skip those steps. Not if you want your pro system to be sustainable.

One thing I have yet to understand about those with a negative view on this program is there is a perceived dichotomy.

Why does creating a system to raise the top levels of play in the US stop anyone from building youth programs? How does a kid going to study in Korea for a year prevent sponsors from giving money to tournaments? Why would you think the creation of a for generating stronger players work against raising awareness of go with society at large?

Equally as strange - why must these professionals make a living wage only from go? The people who are targets for this program are those who are already dedicating a large amount of their time to the game with no financial return, you would now be supplementing it by providing some. To draw from other activities - my hometown got a minor league hockey team a couple years back. When it came to town, local interest in hockey greatly rose. They aren't playing NHL quality hockey, sure, and every player in the league has to have a day job (I think average salary for the players is ~$15,000). Nevertheless there's a decent turnout at their games, and there is significant interest for local sponsors.

If you take a stronger player who is playing at a 7D+ AGA level and already committing a large amount of time and energy to go, provide them with the resources to take their game to the next level, and allow them to earn some cash on the side with it, I think it sounds like it could be a positive program.