Araban vs Magicwand II

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Marcus
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Marcus »

Cool! MW played the :w58: that I would have played. :)
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daniel_the_smith
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by daniel_the_smith »

I think the last few moves from magicwand demonstrate a very common way of digging yourself into a hole.

1. "Oh, I'll just force here and see what he does."
2. "He did that??? Obviously I must play one more time." (repeat as necessary)
3. "Oh crap, now I'm committed."

This is a mistake at any level of play. (Stronger players repeat step #2 fewer times before realizing they've reached step #3...)

The mistake is either (a), doing #1 when there actually is another move in the area you'll answer (i.e., your "forcing move" doesn't really stand alone), or (b), doing #2 one too many times (usually more than 0 times is too many).

It's difficult to come up with a reliable solution. I think the key is the word "obviously" in step #2; if you'd use that word to describe your move, definitely think about it a little extra.
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Marcus »

daniel_the_smith wrote:
I think the last few moves from magicwand demonstrate a very common way of digging yourself into a hole.

1. "Oh, I'll just force here and see what he does."
2. "He did that??? Obviously I must play one more time." (repeat as necessary)
3. "Oh crap, now I'm committed."

This is a mistake at any level of play. (Stronger players repeat step #2 fewer times before realizing they've reached step #3...)

The mistake is either (a), doing #1 when there actually is another move in the area you'll answer (i.e., your "forcing move" doesn't really stand alone), or (b), doing #2 one too many times (usually more than 0 times is too many).

It's difficult to come up with a reliable solution. I think the key is the word "obviously" in step #2; if you'd use that word to describe your move, definitely think about it a little extra.


I believe I'm a bit weaker than Daniel ... but I disagree about the last few MW moves digging a hole, at least not a deep one. I believe there is some solid strategy in the path MW is taking (knowing that Black is going to contest the center, White looks to give himself options for reducing other areas where Black is strong, such as the right side). I'm not quite on board with the sequences MW expects to play out, though ... maybe he will dig that hole. We'll see.
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by daniel_the_smith »

I didn't mean the actual sequences, I have no idea about those, generally 4d mistakes are still playable-- just the attitude MW is showing. He seems to wish he hadn't done things this way.
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

Magicwand wrote:
i have decided to play as below..
this is not too bad. i think i will be ahead with this variation..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O 9 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X 2 1 4 , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X 3 O 6 . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ok.ok.. i lied. above variation looks ok but his middle influence will negate all my hard work and this is nogo.

i dicided to play other variation that might be questionable but i believe the only way to dig out of this situation.
a and b exchange before 4 in the middle may be better but i will have to think about that one.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X b 3 X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a O X 5 1 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this variation looks better than previous...

any question? comment? concerns? from observers???
i see that much discussion going on and kinda curious...
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Xyiana
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Xyiana »

Maybe i count bad, but for me it seems that successful invasion or left+bottom reduction is game end for white(in case of white middle influence loss)? Can someone better count this?
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Tommie
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Tommie »

Magicwand wrote:
Magicwand wrote:
i have decided to play as below..
this is not too bad. i think i will be ahead with this variation..
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X . . X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O O 9 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , O X 2 1 4 , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X 3 O 6 . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

ok.ok.. i lied. above variation looks ok but his middle influence will negate all my hard work and this is nogo.

i dicided to play other variation that might be questionable but i believe the only way to dig out of this situation.
a and b exchange before 4 in the middle may be better but i will have to think about that one.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X b 3 X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a O X 5 1 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

this variation looks better than previous...

any question? comment? concerns? from observers???
i see that much discussion going on and kinda curious...


MW's last variant seems plain wrong to me (dogmatic judgement made in a second).
Two successive moves :w2: , :w4: appear as pure aji-keshi, while :w6: is exercising the famous 'toothbpaste'-technique. :study:
:w4: is together with another stone already in 50% of the hane-on-the-head-of^-2-stones formation, which is not good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X Y 3 X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . a O X 5 1 # , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . # X 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black :b7: next at B = C, # = D or Y = B and nothing serious could happen IMO.

Well, when all three are played, it looks indeed strong :lol:

Nevertheless, I watched very few games and posts on 19x19 during the last 2 years,
and always enjoyed MagicWand's boldness, assertiveness and positive self-stimulation ( YES, Me can :-) )
Last edited by Tommie on Fri Nov 18, 2011 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Greetings,
Tommie

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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

About a week ago Joaz Banbeck wrote:MW... is leaving his lower right group to fend for itself.
If we assume that the developing fight in the upper right is going to roll southward, all Araban has to do is play M3 at the right time, and MW could have problems.


Araban is smart enough not to let MW build the wall facing southward. Indeed, I think that Aarban will be looking to construct his own wall looking southward.


@Araban:
Are you eventually planning to attack his P4 group? And will you be striving for central influence to do that?


@MW:
Some of the comments say that you may be in trouble because you are not planning ahead, and that a wait-and-see strategy is dangerous against a player of Araban's strength. Do you agree? Do you wish that you had read out more in the past 10 moves?
Help make L19 more organized. Make an index: https://lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5207
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

to Joaz:
game of go should flow like a water.
sometimes i dont know what the end is...but i have to go that path..
i knew that his cut will give me a problem but i had to go that path because of ....(i can not explain in words)
maybe i should selected other variations..but ...i think i would have played same if i had same position in future.

it seems that you think i am in a trouble..but i dont think that.
i lost my lead but it is anybody's game.
and the game of go is not simple as "white good black bad" it is more like "white seems better but black seems ok too"
you will see that flow will reverse soon as i take care of this situation.
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The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

after looking at this position for 30 min...i finally arrived at optimal solution.
i am still comfortably ahead and i dont see any way for my opponent to avoid the variation i have in mind...
i will post my thought two moves after my opponents move.

if you are curious to know and can not wait..i will pm you the variation.

now i can sleep easy :)
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Magicwand
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

this is why i hate variation on unpredictable future.
i drew all my variation assuming he will play next move as i predicted..
for all i know he might not play that move..but most likely he will.
anyway...

if he plays next move..this is my plan.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . 5 7 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X 4 3 X O. . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 O X 8 1 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X 9 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . X X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O X X 2 O 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O X O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by prokofiev »

Magicwand wrote:if he plays next move..this is my plan.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . 5 7 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X 4 3 X O. . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 O X 8 1 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X 9 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . X X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O X X 2 O 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O X O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A white stone is misplaced in the first diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . 5 7 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X 4 3 X . W . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 O X 8 1 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X 9 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Tommie
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Tommie »

Neither for Magicwand nor Araban for the next couple of moves in this area.

Magicwand wrote:
this is why i hate variation on unpredictable future.
i drew all my variation assuming he will play next move as i predicted..
for all i know he might not play that move..but most likely he will.
anyway...

if he plays next move..this is my plan.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . 5 7 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X 4 3 X . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 O X 8 1 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X 9 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . X X . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O X X 2 O 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O X O X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


What about this :b7: ? :scratch:
The 3-stone group around :w8: would be doomed.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . 5 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X 4 3 X 7 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X P P . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 O X 8 1 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X 9 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


resp.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X j . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . i h X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X p k O g f O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . q 5 0 . e . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X 4 3 X 7 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 O X . 1 9 , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seems :b7: cannot be captured after cut W10.

However, for a short moment it looks as if :b7: could not be captured in snapback (WF, BG H- atari I, because black K is double atariJ),.
BUT if Black is not willing to surrender :b5: after atari P (after white P, black can no longer play into space K), then this won't neither work nor be sufficient for Black.


Hence, I suggest:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O r w O x y . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . 5 0 . e s t X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X 4 3 X 7 O v X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X O O 8 u . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 O X 9 1 . , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Taking a liberty with :b9: - usually not looking nice - might still be more efficient.
Black is sure to capture (avoiding bad aji) and the middle stones would have more freedom in the center.

Probably White would play :w8: here for shape, but is it effective?

:w2: :w4: :w6: "stand for Joker" (<- perhaps only a Dutch expression?)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X . . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . . . X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X . . O . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . 5 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X 4 3 X 7 O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 X P P . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 6 O X . 1 8 , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Conclusion: Black seems safe.
___________________________________________________________________________________________
EDIT:

Intrigued by the cluster of stones, I had to think about alternative sequences.

Instead of atari P on :b5: above, this white is also feasible, but weaker IMO:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . X . X j . O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O X . . i 2 X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . X p k O g f O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . q B 0 . 1 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O X X B O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O X . B B , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



It reverts to a sequence like this:

The avoided snapback costs B on the top and is good for the middle:
Black cannot connect atari T, wU, bV (which wouldn't yet simultaneously kill the upper W group), w snapback F,
BUT sequence modification bT, wU, bF wins for Black, as the snapback is gone and w and Q are both necessary for White. (bT, wU, X, K, Q also works for Black)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . Z . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . Z . Z t v O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O Z . x u 4 X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . Z 2 k O 3 f O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . q B 0 . 1 w . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O X X B O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O X . B B , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Black would be connected:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoners: white 2 black 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . Y . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . O O . O O X . |
$$ | . . X , O . . O . Y . Y j m O X X . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . O Y . . 5 h X X . . X . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . Y 2 k O 3 f O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . 4 B 0 . 1 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . X O X X B O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X O O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O O X . B B , . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . O . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Not sure whether :b5: or M+ :b5: , or whether M is aji-keshi kikashi.
Last edited by Tommie on Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Greetings,
Tommie

3dan EGF (AGA no 13477) || Tommie on KGS: 'June'|| DGS: 'Zhi Laohu' 纸老虎 = 'paper tiger' || Senseis : http://senseis.xmp.net/?tderz ||
ENFP (MBTI) - 'Find your own style within the Fundamentals of Go! '
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Magicwand »

re: Neither for Magicwand nor Araban for the next couple of moves in this area.
after many many hidden replay i uploaded for next moves....and the remark up there by tommy.

i am pretty sure it will drive Araban crazy :) . this is very complicated and game deciding fight for both of us.

and i am adding another post saying "re: Neither for Magicwand nor Araban for the next couple of moves in this area."

i am curious too but..either it work or not work. i dont see any other way out for black but follow my variation.

if it wasnt for the turnbased game having much time to think about your move..i wouldnt have found that variation.

or
yea..why not another hidden tag..
as result
thank you tommie and everyone else
for observing my game.
"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson
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Tommie
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Re: Araban vs Magicwand II

Post by Tommie »

Magicwand wrote:re: Neither for Magicwand nor Araban for the next couple of moves in this area.
after many many hidden replay i uploaded for next moves....and the remark up there by tommy.

i am pretty sure it will drive Araban crazy :) . this is very complicated and game deciding fight for both of us.

and i am adding another post saying "re: Neither for Magicwand nor Araban for the next couple of moves in this area."

i am curious too but..either it work or not work. i dont see any other way out for black but follow my variation.

if it wasnt for the turnbased game having much time to think about your move..i wouldnt have found that variation.

or
yea..why not another hidden tag..
as result
thank you tommie and everyone else
for observing my game.


Naturally, as it's Araban's turn, I have to hide comments from him.
Magicwand, as the [ quote ] command repeats the "Magicwand wrote:", it might resemble a direct reply to you and an ivitation to read.
Then it might look as if wished to exclude only Araban from my comment for the moment, hence, I did as I did and wrote explicitly.

Anyway, my comment may be plain wrong as I err & overlook a lot lately.

And, yes, I do enjoy watching your bold moves, yet was quite absent from L19 and Go in general for about 2 years.
Greetings,
Tommie

3dan EGF (AGA no 13477) || Tommie on KGS: 'June'|| DGS: 'Zhi Laohu' 纸老虎 = 'paper tiger' || Senseis : http://senseis.xmp.net/?tderz ||
ENFP (MBTI) - 'Find your own style within the Fundamentals of Go! '
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