Greed (3-3 invasion as first move)

[Koosh]

I'll have to admit that while I can understand how people can be upset when their opponent plays this way against them, there are more productive ways to harness that anger.

Here's a more productive way:
1) someone plays this way against you. You either win, or lose.
If you win, forget it and laugh about it. Haha, sucker.
If you lose, why not play this way yourself a few times and figure out new ways to counter it? Who knows? You might make 7d before you find someone who can punish you

Or not. ha

The reason many of these moves/strategies are considered "completely absurd" is because people played/researched them and found out that they didn't work. I don't see anything wrong with going about that process oneself.

Maybe the person who played it against you isn't looking to trick you - rather, they were tricked or intrigued and want to see your counter to it.

[golem7]

One more thought: We take professional advice very seriously, but quite often "this move is bad" just means a loss of a few points, taking gote instead of sente etc. Such things are of utmost importance to professionals (after all, they make their living playing go and fight for every point) but won't be decisive for most amateur games. After an early 3-3-invasion your opponent still has more territory than you + sente, so it's not like a game-deciding mistake. It just has been evaluated that your thickness is better, but how much? I don't know for sure, maybe 5 or 10 points? And that is only if you know how to use it. Until you are really strong (high amateur dan) you won't be able to keep a small advantage to the end because both players will make many more mistakes over the course of the game. It has also been said that opening study is useless before you reach a certain level, because amateur games will be decided by chaotic middle-game fighting anyway
So stop complaining, thank your opponent for giving you an advantage and try to keep it.

Btw: I've seen the following 1-2 exchange while replaying a professional game some time ago. (Just when I thought: "Of course he'll never play there, because it's bad.")

$$Wc
$$ +-------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 1 X . . . X . .
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ +-------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 1 X . . . X . .
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . .[/go]

[Magicwand]

Btw: I've seen the following 1-2 exchange while replaying a professional game some time ago. (Just when I thought: "Of course he'll never play there, because it's bad.")

$$Wc
$$ +-------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 1 X . . . X . .
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ +-------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 1 X . . . X . .
$$ | . . . O . 2 . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . .[/go]

i have seen many many game of professional game with that exchange.
that exchange might be necessary exchange to maintain the point balance on that game.
it all depends on the board situation. you can not say one shape is always bad.

[Marcus]

Not to be a downer, but it's attitudes and threads like tapirs over silly little things like this that make me want to give up this game completely. For the most part I love the Go community, but this smacks of elitism. (My opinion, sorry).

I play the game for fun. I don't have much theoretical backing to my play, and threads like this (and others I've come across here on L19) make me feel like I shouldn't bother playing, as rude a player as I am. I don't resign when I should (I don't count and I like to finish my games). I play unorthodox and "wrong" moves all the time (What do I know about shape or influence? I've tried and failed to read many Go Theory books because it's just not fun for me.).

KGS 2k and improving ... and I'm having fun at the same time. Guess it's rude and insulting to be having fun while I play ...

[hyperpape]

Marcus, more folks than not take your side of this one. Quitting seems premature.

[Marcus]

Marcus, more folks than not take your side of this one. Quitting seems premature.

Just expressing frustration, hyperpape (albeit with more than a little hyperbole; I'll try to tone that back a bit). It just seems that those players who are around my rank as I gain strength are increasingly frustrated with how I play. I don't like making my opponents upset. It's supposed to be a friendly game, and I play for the social aspect. I haven't yet hit the point where I need to study seriously to improve at all (though it's a good bet that it would make my improvement go faster) and beyond that I'm just enjoying the journey ...

[hyperpape]

I do think you have to draw some distinctions. The immediate 3-3 play in blitz games seems a little obnoxious, though I don't mind so much as others Tapir. But I have no problem with improper moves in general--some players have learned by fighting like crazy. The issue really is that I think "how can this player not know that the bare 3-3 invasion is bad? Is he just being perverse?"

It's much easier for me to understand overplays and bad shape. I play plenty of overplays because I don't know any better, and I know players study different things.

[tapir]

I am honestly tired of this thread, deleting is impossible though. I wanted to share an experience, but I got a lot of people analysing me and my so problematic attitude. I don't complain when people don't resign but take it as a patience exercise, I am not in favour of bookish play, there is an overreliance on that among most western amateurs anyway, I wasn't even encouraging proper play of any kind. But I am still at odds with people who consciously play a very different game on blitz time limits than they would on slow limits, that relies solely on taking some territory early and playing next to opponents strength soon after to deny any territory/extension at all, while counting on misreads (usually attacking needs more precision than defending your group) and timeouts. It usually doesn't work for them, but I still waste half an hour of my life to such a meaningless game.

@marcus:
To put a long story short, your opponent deserves your best game, he wants to have fun as well. And I think I can tell, whether someone plays a fighting game (I love WBaduk and I believe this is the style you play) or whether he has a blitz-only time-out and misread optimisation strategy.

[shapenaji]

Go is a conversation, and sometimes with moves like this, it's not a very good conversation.

That being said, I don't see any reason to have a problem with this, I certainly wouldn't ignore a player over it. Do you stop playing with people who make joseki mistakes too?

[Leyleth]

Should every game teach you something? There's no such things as "cheating" in go (except if you move stones, play many times in a row or add yourself some prisoners). Every single tactic is legit.

If I win all my games by invading at san-san right after my opponent played hoshi, it still shows that I am, in some way, superior to my opponent. Instead of being mad, the opponent should learn from it. Review the game and see "how do I answer that move"? By doing this, you'll become stronger. If you just stand there and complain about "dirty tricks", then you won't get better.

Remember... You got 2 eyes and one mouth, because you should be looking/reading twice as much as you talk. Therefore, stop complaining, go study, learn then beat this opponent.

[entropi]

I support tapir's view, but I also understand Marcus when he says "I don't care about theory and may make obvious mistakes. I hate it if these could be perceived as insults".

But as far as I understand tapir talks about obviously wrong moves, which would not even be discussable. An example:


In a recent thread (http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5027), I asked a question about the following sequence.

$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I think this sequence fits to the discussion in this thread. The moves and were played by a shodan (not a 20 kyu) against me. At first I thought there was a hidden trick somewhere but I couldn't find it. That's why I asked it here in L19 but also stronger players answers indicated that the moves are just silly.

Consequently, the meaning of these moves is most probably nothing more than "let's confuse the weak opponent".

Assuming this interpretation is correct, these moves lack respect towards the opponent. If somebody argues otherwise, then the discussion would probably extend to philosophical areas in terms of the definition of "respect", which is not my intention.

What I (and probably tapir) is saying is that I don't like this respectless attitude and it destroys the joy I eventually get from playing. Nothing more...

((((!!! Please god, no more replies like "if you cannot punish it it's not a mistake" !!!)))

[tetron]

Consequently, the meaning of these moves is most probably nothing more than "let's confuse the weak opponent".

Assuming this interpretation is correct, these moves lack respect towards the opponent. If somebody argues otherwise, then the discussion would probably extend to philosophical areas in terms of the definition of "respect", which is not my intention.

What I (and probably tapir) is saying is that I don't like this respectless attitude and it destroys the joy I eventually get from playing. Nothing more...

Lack of respect is very irritating but outside of a serious competition the best response is to mercilessly crush your opponent. If your opponent still refuses to give you a proper game then find another opponent.

In the example you give White's shape looks very bad, to the point where I am not totally convinced that white intended to play 2 in the first place.

I think perhpas there is a slight lack of caution in this thread deciding that the 3-3 move is wrong enough to be disrespectful at the point of players first move (unless it is your near right corner).

The game complexity is still so huge at this point that there are many options left and it is clearly much stronger than passing. What I suspect makes it seem very wrong is the follow-up as it tends to focus the attention on a corner that is too small. For me, this is a sign of a limited player rather than simple disrespect.

For example, (not in a game) I tried to decide how much worse playing in the very corner as an opening move as opposed to pass even this is non-trivial.

[Magicwand]

I support tapir's view, but I also understand Marcus when he says "I don't care about theory and may make obvious mistakes. I hate it if these could be perceived as insults".

But as far as I understand tapir talks about obviously wrong moves, which would not even be discussable. An example:


In a recent thread (http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5027), I asked a question about the following sequence.

$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I think this sequence fits to the discussion in this thread. The moves and were played by a shodan (not a 20 kyu) against me. At first I thought there was a hidden trick somewhere but I couldn't find it. That's why I asked it here in L19 but also stronger players answers indicated that the moves are just silly.

Consequently, the meaning of these moves is most probably nothing more than "let's confuse the weak opponent".

Assuming this interpretation is correct, these moves lack respect towards the opponent. If somebody argues otherwise, then the discussion would probably extend to philosophical areas in terms of the definition of "respect", which is not my intention.

What I (and probably tapir) is saying is that I don't like this respectless attitude and it destroys the joy I eventually get from playing. Nothing more...

((((!!! Please god, no more replies like "if you cannot punish it it's not a mistake" !!!)))

at your level...i dont think you know how to punish above diag.
IF YOU CAN NOT PUNISH IT IT'S NOT A MISTAKE!!!

on a handycap game..white must play an overplay to win.
overplay is played because if you dont..you will lose.
then what constitude an overplay???
IMO,
if it is complicated enough so your opponent can not answer properly...then it is a reasonable overplay.

above diag it was an intresting sequence to exchange and play 3-3.
i think correct answer to below is a or b... probably a. and later play b to make his exchange an ajikeshi.

$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 a . . |
$$ . . . . . b 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 a . . |
$$ . . . . . b 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

[shapenaji]

But as far as I understand tapir talks about obviously wrong moves, which would not even be discussable. An example:


In a recent thread (http://lifein19x19.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5027), I asked a question about the following sequence.

$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

I think this sequence fits to the discussion in this thread. The moves and were played by a shodan (not a 20 kyu) against me. At first I thought there was a hidden trick somewhere but I couldn't find it. That's why I asked it here in L19 but also stronger players answers indicated that the moves are just silly.

Consequently, the meaning of these moves is most probably nothing more than "let's confuse the weak opponent".

The thing is, go is still a psychological game, if you are the type to let their moves make you angry, then you are walking around with a massive weakness that you need to fix.

Your example is truly awful, laughably awful.

However, even assuming it was intentional, to mess with you and throw you off. It is still a valuable lesson to learn to counter. If you get angry at moves like this, you are too emotionally invested in your game, and it means you need to learn to step back during games.

That emotional attachment is the same kind which makes you hold on to worthless stones, or try unreasonably hard to kill a stone because it entered your framework, or pick a 20 point capture over a 30 point territory move.

Play like Buddha, Attach without becoming attached.

[entropi]

@magicwand: You would probably be right if it was a 9 handicap game, but at that time I was just two stones weaker than him. If I don't know how to handle it, probably he was also not a big expert, either. This is in fact the very reason why these moves disturb me, he claims to be so much stronger than me that is almost an insult.

@shapenaji: You hit the bullseye I think. More than half of the games I lose are lost due to this emotional attachment issue. However, this still does not change the fact that these moves lack respect, regardless of I get angry or not