Trying to become pro

tchan001 · Post by **tchan001** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:02 pm

Anyways, this is different from the model answer, but I don't want to waste any more space on Leyleth's thread on his becoming a pro. But if he wants to try a hard pro like prob, try the middlegame problem I posted on a separate thread.

SoDesuNe · Post by **SoDesuNe** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:11 pm

tchan001 showed me the model answer on KGS and it's - of course - much cleaner. No Ko, White lives unconditionally or connects out over the top. But at least it involves the same Tesuji eventually ^^

Black strongest (and most unreasonable) line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . 8 2 5 0 9 X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 4 3 1 7 O X O X O X . | $$ | . . . . . O X . X X X 6 O X O X O O . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . X X O X 2 X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X O O O O X O X O X . | $$ | . . . . . O X . X X X X O X O X O O 6 | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O 1 O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . 5 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X 4 8 9 | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X 3 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White connects out:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 2 6 4 8 X X X X . | $$ | . . . . . . 9 . . 3 1 7 O X O X O X . | $$ | . . . . . O X . X X X . O X O X O O . | $$ | . . . O . O X . . , . . O . O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . X O . O X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O O X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Leyleth · Post by **Leyleth** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 11:28 pm

Started to lose lots against 7 kyus. Makes me depressed and now I'm just mad at everything in sight. Can't seem to win anymore. It's like if I had forgotten how... I'm so mad at myself. I can beat these guys. Hopefully it's gonna be better tomorrow. It's probably gonna sound stupid and girlish, but I just wanna cry. I can win. I know I can. However, my mind forgot how to play well. I make some sloppy mistakes despite lots of reading. I play bad moves. My go simply went from poor to horrible. I'm so mad...

OtakuViking · Post by **OtakuViking** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:28 am

We all have days like that Ley x.x The thing I use to pull through is to think about what the best moves are and not think about winning or losing at all. If this is hard, try playing only free games and when you feel super buzzed in the zone you can pop a rated game or two. But especially for slumps where you think it's all about winning or losing.

It's best to forget about winning and losing and just focus on playing well, not being afraid and not thinking your opponent is stronger than he actually is. Challenge him, don't let yourself be pushed around. Be positive!

)

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:22 am

Leyleth wrote:Started to lose lots against 7 kyus. Makes me depressed and now I'm just mad at everything in sight. Can't seem to win anymore. It's like if I had forgotten how... I'm so mad at myself. I can beat these guys. Hopefully it's gonna be better tomorrow. It's probably gonna sound stupid and girlish, but I just wanna cry. I can win. I know I can. However, my mind forgot how to play well. I make some sloppy mistakes despite lots of reading. I play bad moves. My go simply went from poor to horrible. I'm so mad...

You'll do better tomorrow. (It's a law; Regression to the mean; don't forget, though, the law says when you have a super good day, you'll do worse the day after...)

I don't recommend spending too much time being angry at yourself, it's not healthy. Go study instead.

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:44 am

daniel_the_smith wrote:You'll do better tomorrow. (It's a law; Regression to the mean; don't forget, though, the law says when you have a super good day, you'll do worse the day after...)

I don't recommend spending too much time being angry at yourself, it's not healthy. Go study instead.

This "law" makes compulsive gamblers lose fortunes. If it was bad today, it has to be better tomorrow. No, there is no law like this. Luck / randomness on the next day is independent of today's luck / randomness. As Go isn't a game of luck, but one of complete information it is even worse. Odds are you play worse the day after a bad day because you are not calm and don't play your best after a bad streak. Just keep playing and see how deep you can fall. Learning to cope with disappointments and to keep trying will make you a better player in the long run.

daniel_the_smith · Post by **daniel_the_smith** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:14 am

tapir wrote:
daniel_the_smith wrote:You'll do better tomorrow. (It's a law; Regression to the mean; don't forget, though, the law says when you have a super good day, you'll do worse the day after...)

I don't recommend spending too much time being angry at yourself, it's not healthy. Go study instead.

This "law" makes compulsive gamblers lose fortunes. If it was bad today, it has to be better tomorrow. No, there is no law like this. Luck / randomness on the next day is independent of today's luck / randomness. As Go isn't a game of luck, but one of complete information it is even worse. Odds are you play worse the day after a bad day because you are not calm and don't play your best after a bad streak. Just keep playing and see how deep you can fall. Learning to cope with disappointments and to keep trying will make you a better player in the long run.

If luck were the sole determining factor, then you're correct, it's the gambler's fallacy. But if some aspect of your skill is involved, then regression to the mean is a real effect; on awesome days, you're likely to do worse the next day, on horrible days, you're likely to do better the next day (it also works backwards in time). Of course there's tons of other effects, too (like if you get depressed by a bad result, you can play even worse as a result). At 7k I expect other effects to dominate (e.g., it's possible that Leyleth has just started to understand how bad 7k's really are).

Another way of stating regression to the mean: If your average strength is 7k, then for every day you play like a 9k there has to be a day where you play like a 5k. And vice versa; for every 4k day there's a 10k day. The law is not your friend.

Edit: actually I don't like that phrasing, this is better: If your average strength is 7k, you're much more likely to experience days where you play near a 7k level than days where you play much better or much worse than 7k. So, if you just experienced a day where you played much better or worse, it's likely that the day before and the day after will see you playing nearer 7k.

RBerenguel · Post by **RBerenguel** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:31 am

I guess playing free games can help, also don't giving a sh?t about your games. After all, it's a game. It's not still your job Leyleth, take it easy for a while.

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:02 pm

RBerenguel wrote:I guess playing free games can help, also don't giving a sh?t about your games. After all, it's a game. It's not still your job Leyleth, take it easy for a while.

How can you play your best when you don't care about the game in question? Did this work for anyone? (Kawabata says in Meijin how seriously Shusai even took other recreational games. And I believe I heard similar things about other professional players.) I would advice the opposite: Only play rated games and get used to losing a rank in between. It happens to all of us.

Imho it is no good to have a fixed idea of oneself as a 7k or 2d or whatever, these are hopefully nothing but the expressions of a still limited but increasing understanding. Seeing the rank swing back and forth may help more against the whole reification of ranks than anything else. Plenty of unranked KGS players are in fact very rank-conscious outside server play, but can't stand the idea of "not being able to represent it" on KGS.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:07 pm

It's not the gambler's fallacy.

The gambler's fallacy is "I lost today, so I shall win tomorrow." Complete garbage if results are independent.

Regression to the mean is "I had my worst loss (or biggest win) in years today. Tomorrow won't be so bad."* Guaranteed by the laws of probability for independent events.

* Or perhaps you'd prefer "it's extremely unlike that tomorrow will be this bad". The relation between such absolute statements and claims about probability is one of those problems that is too hard to ever be solved.

Numsgil · Post by **Numsgil** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:21 pm

Leyleth wrote:Started to lose lots against 7 kyus. Makes me depressed and now I'm just mad at everything in sight. Can't seem to win anymore. It's like if I had forgotten how... I'm so mad at myself. I can beat these guys. Hopefully it's gonna be better tomorrow. It's probably gonna sound stupid and girlish, but I just wanna cry. I can win. I know I can. However, my mind forgot how to play well. I make some sloppy mistakes despite lots of reading. I play bad moves. My go simply went from poor to horrible. I'm so mad...

Yeah, everyone gets this. It's not even limited to go, unfortunately. The Starcraft and League of Legends rage issues I've had... lol

When you get in that state of mind, resist the temptation to play more! If you're like most people you want to still play. But it's one of the few times when you really should walk away from the game. Not even just go, but anything that requires a test of skill (so most games, certainly anything competitive) If not, you'll just get in to a tantrum spiral. Your negative attitude ends up producing losses, which produces more negative attitude. Yech.

RBerenguel · Post by **RBerenguel** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:52 pm

tapir wrote:How can you play your best when you don't care about the game in question? Did this work for anyone? (Kawabata says in Meijin how seriously Shusai even took other recreational games. And I believe I heard similar things about other professional players.) I would advice the opposite: Only play rated games and get used to losing a rank in between. It happens to all of us.

He's just been playing for a few months, has faced some harsh comments here and is probably putting too much pressure in the game. It's better to take a break sometimes. Of course, there are people who never need to take breaks, but for some they are necessary and useful.

RBerenguel · Post by **RBerenguel** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:53 pm

Urist McNumsgil? Do you also play DF?

tapir · Post by **tapir** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:03 pm

Reviewing all your losses from today and analyzing them in a calm way while being honest to yourself might help. Even if you probably don't want to look at them right now. Disappointment is inevitable once in a while when you play Go, but you can learn to cope with it.

oren · Post by **oren** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 1:28 pm

I think it's good you're losing some games now. Over your go playing career, you're going to end up with a win/loss rate of about 50% in the long run. It's better to get the rage of losing over with now and focus on how you get better.

Life In 19x19

Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro

Re: Trying to become pro