Nihon Ki-in amateur ranks

[tapir]

Someone recently changed a SL page according to this list: http://囲碁教室.jp/kgs/kgs_rank.html

If there is any truth in this comparison table I would be very worried about amateur go in Japan. While I believe the number of 10 kyus is a better indicator of a healthy player population than anything else, I would be worried to know that Nihon Ki-in 6 dan matches to 2-3 kyu KGS. Can you please assure me, that it is complete bogus? Thank you.

[EdLee]

that it is complete bogus?

It is very real indeed. And it is a very natural and inevitable result as soon as money was involved --
more kyu and dan ranks means more certificates, which in turn means more income for the certificate issuer.
Sometimes this is disguised in the name of the "promotion of Go."
The same dan-rank inflation had happened in some (Japanese/Korean) martial arts,
as early as before WWII. It is _very_easy_ to find youtube videos
of 7-dan, 8-dan, 10-dan+ martial arts "masters"/"grand masters" who are in reality kyu level.
In fact, it is the norm.

[Loons]

Case in point, ez4u (jp 6d) seems to be a cry stronger than KGS 1d.

[Dusk Eagle]

I think ez4u is at least a couple of stones stronger than KGS 1d. If its true that KGS 2kyus can obtain Japanese 6dan diplomas, that makes the amateur Japanese ranking system almost worthless for comparing strength on the upper levels of play.

[gowan]

The Nihon Ki-in has a system of ranks via tournament play that is very comparable to AGA and EGF ranks. Some years ago or so one of the visiting Japanese amateurs (Japanese rank amateur 7-dan) almost won the US Open at the US Go Congress, beating several AGA high dan ranked players in the process. It is known that you can "inflate" your kgs rank using multiple accounts and other techniques. I think SolCh aka Araban posted something about this a few years ago on GoDiscussions.

[tapir]

I am well aware that there are many strong Japanese players, but what makes a Japanese go school publish such a comparison table? Giving someone (their pupils) an inflated impression about their strength (within Japan) won't work in the long run. I mean, they will play other Japanese sooner or later and this will produce genuine feedback and likely much frustration... how is this supposed to work out?

7 dan and 8 dan are afaik not normal ranks, but awarded for winning large amateur tournaments.

[RobertJasiek]

Nihon Kiin rank inflation is very real:
- There are some Japanese not knowing European ranks and entering the EGC. Like a 6d losing 10 games straight and ending amidst kyu players.
- When entering the Nihon Kiin, I called myself (Japanese) 6d. After two games, the club teacher called me 8d. In another Tokyo club, I had no problem to win all my games as 6d but there club rank promotion was in fractions of a rank per won game.

Of course, there are also very strong Japanese amateurs but typically they are also called 6d or 7d.

[Go_Japan]

I haven't played in a Japanese ranking tournament in a while, but I played in Kansai-kiin before. The system is such that it tells you that you are better than a particular rank, not that you are a particular rank. When I played, it was 5 games and if you won 4 of the games, they gave you a certificate designating that particular rank. If you enter as a 1d and win 4, they give you the 1d certificate. This does not make you a 1d. It only says you are at least 1d, but you could be higher. So, given that system (if that is how they still do it), the 6d does not mean you are a 6d JP, it means you are at least 6d jp. There is no requirement that you lose a game to a higher ranked player, so there is no way to know how high your rank is.
And I would think that if someone in Japan were entering a European league, they would look up rank comparisons before entering. That just seems like proper diligence to me.

The biggest problem is whether Japanese ranked players are so much worse than other players around the world. That would be a sad state... but I do not think it is true. A lot of strong players play on IGS from Japan. So, it seems like it is just a function of the system and money, perhaps, as others stated, imho.

[tapir]

If it is like this, why do strong players in Japan don't despair over the inflation. Having a rank with a spread of 9 stones, when handicap stones are the legitimation of ranks to begin with, is just plain ridiculous.

[gowan]

I haven't played in a Japanese ranking tournament in a while, but I played in Kansai-kiin before. The system is such that it tells you that you are better than a particular rank, not that you are a particular rank. When I played, it was 5 games and if you won 4 of the games, they gave you a certificate designating that particular rank. If you enter as a 1d and win 4, they give you the 1d certificate. This does not make you a 1d. It only says you are at least 1d, but you could be higher. So, given that system (if that is how they still do it), the 6d does not mean you are a 6d JP, it means you are at least 6d jp. There is no requirement that you lose a game to a higher ranked player, so there is no way to know how high your rank is.
And I would think that if someone in Japan were entering a European league, they would look up rank comparisons before entering. That just seems like proper diligence to me.

The biggest problem is whether Japanese ranked players are so much worse than other players around the world. That would be a sad state... but I do not think it is true. A lot of strong players play on IGS from Japan. So, it seems like it is just a function of the system and money, perhaps, as others stated, imho.

The way this is worded it makes it seem that many Japanese players are underranked rather than inflated, e.g. someone might actually be 4d but is ranked as "at least 2d". Rank systems differ from country to country, even in Europe. Supposedly, Finnish dan ranks are stronger than those of some other European countries, for example. I think the only way to have useful rank comparisons is to have a common rating system and have everyone participate in it. Even then ratings and ranks will not be the same from region to region. In the USA, for example, even though there is an effective AGA rating system (but no official ranks) there are differences in the strengths of players of similar ratings between the West and East coasts. This is probably due to the distance between these groups of players. If you are traveling to the Orient (CJK) and want to get a good idea of your strength there I would recommend playing one or more even games with a pro or other very strong player who could then give you advice as to what rank level you should use. Of course a good staring point for ranks would be go server ranks, but as we know, they aren't all that comparable either.

In Japan I think most people play in local go clubs (go kaisho). These clubs have their own ranking systems and since the community of players is fairly small there may be significant differences between go club rankings and national rankings.

[EdLee]

If it is like this, why do strong players in Japan don't despair over the inflation. ...is just plain ridiculous.

Because it's hopeless. And yes, it's ridiculous. As mentioned earlier, the same is very true
for certain martial arts rankings: we're talking about thousands, tens of thousands,
or even hundreds of thousands of over-ranked "dan" martial arts people who are actually kyu level (thanks, youtube ).
If you're a serious martial artist, what do you do? Are you going to travel around the world and
challenge all those tens of thousands of people who are over-ranked? No.
You just focus on polishing yourself, and maybe help others do the same.
The same is true for Go players. The truly high level Go players don't go
around to confront every over-ranked person or every over-ranked certificate issuer -- that's pointless.
They just focus on polishing their own Go, and help others if possible. That's all.

[RobertJasiek]

In the USA, for example, even though there is an effective AGA rating system (but no official ranks) there are differences in the strengths of players of similar ratings between the West and East coasts.

This is an example that a) the rating system is flawed or b) there are too few games between the West and East coasts. If there were one world rating system, then the same problem would exist.

[xed_over]

In the USA, for example, even though there is an effective AGA rating system (but no official ranks) there are differences in the strengths of players of similar ratings between the West and East coasts.

This is an example that a) the rating system is flawed or b) there are too few games between the West and East coasts. If there were one world rating system, then the same problem would exist.

Its b.

[Go_Japan]

In Japan I think most people play in local go clubs (go kaisho). These clubs have their own ranking systems and since the community of players is fairly small there may be significant differences between go club rankings and national rankings.

I think this is right. When I first learned to play in Japan, I was playing at a friend's go club in a small town. They had all the ranks on the wall for all the members of the club. So, it didn't matter what "rank" you were, as long as you knew how strong you were relative to the people you are playing. It was like a private golf club with the handicaps posted for all the players.
With the increase in international games, keeping a consistent system around the globe seems quite tough. If someone ventures out of their home club/city/country, they are probably going to run into conversion problems, I guess. I am actually interested in playing in a McMahon style tourney, but I am in Japan... and I am not sure they exist here.

[Tami]

I think it is revealing that the teacher at that go school, Mr Akaki, states his strength using his KGS rank, not his local one.