I do not play handicap games well or often, so I am not confident on playing as white. Recently, I played a 2 stone handicap game as white and opened on the hoshi.
AFter the game, I thought about this move a lot and looked at some pro 2 stone handicap games on smartgo. I noticed that all 5 games I looked at opened with a 3-4 play, followed by a 3-4 play to approach black's stone in the third corner. In the diagram, I showed the moves from the game and what I saw in professional games (played on the marked positions).
Is the 4-4 opening bad for white? if so, why? What are the options for opening in a 2-stone handicap game? Lastly, if this is already answered or if there are a set of handicap fuseki in sgf around, I would greatly appreciate you pointing me in the right direction.
Thank you for your help.
W 4-4 opening on a 2 stone handicap game... wrong?
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OtakuViking
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Re: W 4-4 opening on a 2 stone handicap game... wrong?
Opening on 4-4 is just a preference, it cannot be called wrong or bad. In fact it is quite a nice move. There are alot of other reasons why you might have lost, it cannot be from opening on 4-4 
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msgreg
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Re: W 4-4 opening on a 2 stone handicap game... wrong?
If anyone else contradicts this post, you should probably believe them and not me.
My understanding of 4-4 is that it takes 3 stones to defend the corner if started at 4-4 but only two stones if started at 3-4 (the second stone being a knight's move from 3-4). 4-4 does have greater influence in the center, but is subject to a 3-3 invasion (which I think properly played ends in ko). Neither is "wrong" per se. Just different purposes. All obviously depends on black's approach, if any, prior to your second move in the corner and the rest of the opening.
My understanding of 4-4 is that it takes 3 stones to defend the corner if started at 4-4 but only two stones if started at 3-4 (the second stone being a knight's move from 3-4). 4-4 does have greater influence in the center, but is subject to a 3-3 invasion (which I think properly played ends in ko). Neither is "wrong" per se. Just different purposes. All obviously depends on black's approach, if any, prior to your second move in the corner and the rest of the opening.
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Phelan
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Re: W 4-4 opening on a 2 stone handicap game... wrong?
It depends on the surrounding stones, but with no surrounding stones it actually ends with the invader getting life in the corner and sente, and the defender getting influence.msgreg wrote:(...) a 3-3 invasion (which I think properly played ends in ko).
Edit: To make it clearer, here is the joseki. White is alive with sente, Black gets influence.
Last edited by Phelan on Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ez4u
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Re: W 4-4 opening on a 2 stone handicap game... wrong?
Write it on your heart - nothing you choose for 
in a 2-stone game will lose that game for you. 
Looking in GoGoD
we can see that the Chinese players of old (17th and 18th century) invariably started 2-stone games with an immediate approach to one of the handicap stones. In 17th century Japan Honinbo Dosaku was a great fan of on the 5-3 point. In the second half of the 18th century the 5-4 point was popular with players like Honinbo Satsugen and Yasui Senchi. By the beginning of the 19th century 3-4 had become the standard play. However, the first example of on 4-4 was by Shusaku in 1844. It has never been very popular but it has been played since by the likes of Honinbo Shusai, Go Seigen (including games against young punks like Fujisawa Kuranosuke [later Hosai] and Sakata), Otake, Cho Chikun, Nei Weiping, Takemiya, and Takao Shinji. So if you got it wrong, you were in good company! 
in a 2-stone game will lose that game for you. Looking in GoGoD
we can see that the Chinese players of old (17th and 18th century) invariably started 2-stone games with an immediate approach to one of the handicap stones. In 17th century Japan Honinbo Dosaku was a great fan of on the 5-3 point. In the second half of the 18th century the 5-4 point was popular with players like Honinbo Satsugen and Yasui Senchi. By the beginning of the 19th century 3-4 had become the standard play. However, the first example of on 4-4 was by Shusaku in 1844. It has never been very popular but it has been played since by the likes of Honinbo Shusai, Go Seigen (including games against young punks like Fujisawa Kuranosuke [later Hosai] and Sakata), Otake, Cho Chikun, Nei Weiping, Takemiya, and Takao Shinji. So if you got it wrong, you were in good company! Dave Sigaty
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HermanHiddema
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Re: W 4-4 opening on a 2 stone handicap game... wrong?
What was the age of the games you looked at? Pro-pro handicap was much more common before the introduction of komi, and for much of that period, before the shinfuseki revolution, 4-4 was not really considered for openings. If the games you looked at were from before 1920 or thereabout, 4-4 was probably never on the table.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with opening 4-4 in a handicap game.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with opening 4-4 in a handicap game.
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Uberdude
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Re: W 4-4 opening on a 2 stone handicap game... wrong?
Something to bear in mind is the 4-4 joseki tend to be simpler than those for the 3-4, and a common plan as white in handicap games is to make complications. 5-3 or other "unconventional" opening moves have the same idea of giving unfamiliar positions to hopefully confuse the weaker player.
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gowan
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Re: W 4-4 opening on a 2 stone handicap game... wrong?
The great Japanese player and theorist Kajiwara Takeo 9p wrote a book Kajiwara Ryuu Dengeki Senpo (Kajiwara style Lightning Bolt Tactics) in which he analysed various approaches for Black in two and three stone games in response to different White strategies. In the two-stone volume he devotes 18 pages to White's first move on the corner star point. Kajiwara remarks that statistically White does not begin on the starpoint very often but that does not mean it is a bad move. He recommends B2 on the diagonally opposite star point as in this diagram:
In essence he thinks that this response by Black simplifies the game, leaves White outnumbered three to one in corner starpoints, and creates lots of miai situations that make it easier for Black to play.
Takemiya wrote a series of books 18 or 19 years ago titled Uchuu Ryuu Joban Kousou (Cosmic Style Opening Concepts) one of which is devoted to two-stone games. There are twelve hypothetical games, one of which begins with White 1 in the above diagram and, unsurprisingly, Takemiya also recommends that Black reply on the star point.
In essence he thinks that this response by Black simplifies the game, leaves White outnumbered three to one in corner starpoints, and creates lots of miai situations that make it easier for Black to play.
Takemiya wrote a series of books 18 or 19 years ago titled Uchuu Ryuu Joban Kousou (Cosmic Style Opening Concepts) one of which is devoted to two-stone games. There are twelve hypothetical games, one of which begins with White 1 in the above diagram and, unsurprisingly, Takemiya also recommends that Black reply on the star point.
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Go_Japan
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Re: W 4-4 opening on a 2 stone handicap game... wrong?
This is a great analysis from all of you. Thank you very much. I only looked at a few pro games that were on Smartgo and I couldn't sort them by handicap, afaik, so it was very limited. I will try to look at some of those other games when I can later so that I can get an idea of how a pro would play this opening.
Thanks again for your insightful and knowledgable comments.
Thanks again for your insightful and knowledgable comments.