Tami's Way

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

I have hidden most of my older posts in order to make it easier to read more recent ones - like putting old books back on the shelf.

I have changed a lot since the summer. Back then, I was still looking for a quick-fix to get stronger. Aren't a lot of people trying to do that?

Two things have changed my attitude fundamentally. One was learning about the "10,000 hour" rule; the other was reading a comment about Ilia Shikshin, stating how he attained his strength by studying everything he could get his hands on.

It should have been obvious, but the one sure way to get good at anything is to put in the time and effort, and to keep it up.

I don't think I can manage 10,000 hours on go within a time frame shorter than 15 years, but having investigated the study hours required in various disciplines to reach certain standards, I am convinced that there are still worthwhile goals to aim at. In any case, I have decided to do what the strong did, and study as much as possible and to keep it up. To make sure that I put in a meaningful effort, I have been keeping a log of the hours I spend on things I wish to improve in. It may sound funny, but I have a chart, and after every study session I award myself a sticker for each half-hour unit. You should try it - it's surprisingly satisfying to see the rewards stack up, and to know that you're doing what you have to do. The one caveat is that you must not simply mark time - a unit can only be awarded for time spent making an effort to understand, learn or solve something challenging. Simply playing games, clicking through pro games without understanding, or skim-reading Hikaru no Go does not qualify! Once you have begun keeping a record, you become painfully aware of how determined you have to be, and how easy it was to fritter away time in the past.

I think I can manage about 750 study hours on go every year. Given that it takes 1000 hours to learn how to fly a helicopter, or 3000 hours to learn how to fly an airliner, this represents enough time and effort to become a seriously strong player within a reasonable time frame (about five years). That is still not aiming at anything like professional strength, however!

How am I spending my go time?

First, I am doing as many tsumego as I can, mainly of easy-to-moderate difficulty. When you are putting in the effort, it is suprising how many you can get through.

Second, I am reading strategy books (mainly Japanese ones from MyCom). Finally I see the point! It's not about learning new principles (that only high dans know) or anything like that; it's rather that you need continual reminding and training in the basics of good play, no matter how good you think you are. I think of it this way: it is one thing knowing something in principle, and another thing to master its application. For example, one of the most basic skills in playing the guitar is alternate picking. That is nothing more than moving your pick up and down in time with the beat, and hitting/missing the strings according to the rhythm you want to play. It may sound simple in the extreme, but be assured that it takes many, many hours to learn how to alternate pick smoothly, with complete control and good feeling. Strategy books, especially those with sets of whole-board problems, offer something similar to musical drills.

Third, I am reading technical books. You need to know your joseki and middle-game patterns, but it takes time to learn them properly. Mere memorisation is a recipe for disaster; slow, thoughtful working through each pattern, plus plenty of review, seems to be the way forward.

I don't know how to classify time spent playing go. Recently I have been playing too quickly, which is mainly a mixture of playing late at night and having a lot of new information bouncing around my head. I suppose that playing blitz is almost worthless as a learning activity, because it only tells you what your level is when you're not thinking; but if you want to get better, then it's already established that you have to make a deliberate effort. But, then there are many people who play thousands of games over the years, presumably with some thought put into it, who never get any better. Obviously it's necessary to play, and even more than that, the main purpose of go is to play, but in terms of learning how to play better, I can only surmise that play is a good deal less effective than deliberate practice. Quite likely, it's the time spent critically reviewing your games that aids improvement, not the time spent playing them itself.

To make playing less like playing, and more like deliberate practice (heh heh, am I not a jolly person? :D ), I think compasses and checklists are probably a good thing, but not as a substitute for thinking. You cannot win a go game by turning yourself into a four-line computer program, but you can deliberately integrate that four-line routine into your overall thinking. As for devising good navigation systems to install, I think there's not much better than the wonderful MyCom books - Takemiya, Hane, Sonoda and Yamashita
all supply thinking patterns that could be implemented neatly as compasses.

While I'm at it, I have concluded that playing through uncommented pro games is not a good idea. It's like a high school student attempting to understand Dufay or Josquin - it's very likely you'll miss the point without a guide.

__________________
So, in a nutshell:

GOOD Read books, review games, solve problems, play over commented games, use checklists to learn disciplined thinking
BAD Play blitz, memorise joseki, using checklists as a substitute for thinking

POINT! Even at two hours a day, that totals no more than between 500 and 700 study hours a year, assuming that you have the occasional rest day. If it takes 10,000 hours to become top-class in something, and 3000 to become "competent", then you will see that it requires a real commitment and sustained effort to make progress beyond the intermediate ranks. Sorry, but there are no easy alternatives.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

Thickness needs space to develop, lest it becomes overconcentrated.

Likewise, if you play for influence, you can't afford to fall behind. I like influence, but I think I am too soft on territory. I believe the cause is my liking for thickness. I tend to play reinforcing moves on top of influence-oriented moves, and that is why I give away too many points in the opening. Thickness and influence are related concepts, but they're not the same thing at all.

An example speaks louder than words:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]W$$ Don't fall behind!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I played at 2 in a recent game, which is a thick move, but it was too slow.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ It is hard to build a moyo
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , 6 . . . . , . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I played as shown, but it was hard to build a moyo (I did, in fact, but I was lucky).

After the game, it occurred to me that this way might have been better:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]W$$ More effective
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , 2 . . . . , . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It looks like the approach is working better with the upper right, and it does not feel that I am giving black a lot of points.

It's like drawing a picture, I suppose. You can start by sketching a rough outline and then filling in details (gaining influence and development first), or you can start with small details and work outwards (playing thickly but slowly). In the second line, White lays out her moyo in rough, and is prepared to fight over the details; the way she actually played, however, avoided difficult fighting, but was too slow.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by tapir »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]W$$ More effective?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , 2 . . . . , . . . W . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


When going for influence consistency of effort is often more important in my humble (and not so much strength based) opinion. If you had not played the keima, tenuki would be ok, here the keima move ends in an odd place after Black cuts.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

I see what you mean, tapir.

That noted, I still think there's the beginning of a new insight around here. Something along the lines of

* Thick play needs scope to develop, otherwise you get overconcentrated
* Influence too needs room to develop, but for to avoid being soft with territory
* If there is no way to develop satisfactorily, then you should not choose the influence- or thickness-biased move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]W$$ Another way?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , 4 . . . . , . . . W . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Instead of playing at a, how about approaching? The approach looks good before Black has played b.

I did choose the move at a in the actual game, but somehow it looks too flat or too close to the upper right. Whatever the reason, it seems misdirected.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Magicwand »

i just started reading this thread..
i hope i can help answer some of your question..

yes 4 looks better than 'a'
better?? let me choose aother word..."active"
it doesnt necessary mean better but has a potental to be better.
for that reason i do not like :b3: .
should have been played around :w4:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]W$$ Another way?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , 4 . . . . , . . . W . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


now this thread is in my view file...i will try to give you some feedback if i can.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

Thanks, magicwand. I always appreciate constructive input.

I've been reviewing Sonoda's book on basic strategy (一流基本戦略). Little by little, my understanding is being refined. When I read it two years ago, I took "playing near living groups is small" to mean much the same thing as "play far from thickness". Now, I see that it does not mean that at all.

Thickness needs to be developed, as I noted a few posts ago, to avoid becoming a large number of stones played close together with little territory to show for the investment. It is quite possible for thickness not only to be wasted, but to be turned into a heavy group that needs to make two eyes, the ultimate humiliation.

A living group already has two eyes. It may or may not be thick, but it can't be killed. Playing near your partner's living group is like hitting a tank with a stick - it's a "so what? situation". Playing near your own living group is like guarding a tank with a swordsman - it's a waste.

So, putting it all together, you can make the following compass to add to the navigational aids of go.

CENTRE - Know the balance (every move takes something, and gives something. Take more than you give!)
NORTH - Influence needs speed (or you`ll be soft on territory)
WEST - Thickness needs to work (expand and attack, and do not allow overconcentration)
EAST - Territory needs activity (you can't win just by defending ground)
SOUTH - Don't be single-minded!

On an unrelated note, I`m going to have to pay more attention to handling my emotions. I don't get angry nearly as much as I used to, but I still allow irritation to affect me at times, and I recently had another tilting episode.

I think the key is not suppressing your emotions, as I used to think, but rather to acknowledge them and to control them. I might feel irritated with the opponent who tries to induce me to blunder at 2 AM by playing on and on in hopeless position, but I don't have to act on that irritation. It's normal to feel nervous, angry or sad sometimes. Recognise how you feel, but put that feeling into a separate part of your mind, and continue to make unclouded judgements. Easier said than done, but probably more correct and more achievable than attempting not to feel anything at all.

While I'm at it, I think I shall take the opportunity to share a theory of learning I'm working on. I was keeping it to myself, but then the "physical finesse and creative career path" chap from the DaiJob ads in the Dailu Yomiuri published a short essay containing a similar idea, so I suppose the cat's out the bag.

Having investigated the 10,000 hour rule, it occurred to me to look into what approximate grades of accomplishment other investments of time and energy might produce. Here is my basic idea, based on a mixture of non-scientific web-surfing, reading and observation.

10,000 hours - world-class ability
3,000 hours - entry-level professional
1,000 hours - technician (you have professional-level abilities, but only within a highly specialised range)
500-750 hours - intermediate
100 hours - basic competency

The hours have to be spent on effortful study - that is, deliberate practice and research aimed at stretching your understanding and knowledge to the next step. Going through the motions does not count.

The bases for the 10,000 rule have been argued at length elsewhere. Briefly, I'll supply my rationale for the other "grades".

3,000 hours - that's how long it takes to become a Fide Master at chess, if you're lucky. It's about the number of training hours to become an airline pilot.

1,000 hours - that's the number of hours required to learn to fly a helipcopter. You can gain professional certificates in things like aromatherapy with this investment. It's supposed to take about this long to get to JLPT N1 in Japanese.

500-750 hours - that's the time required for JLPT N3. It's good and definitely useful, but it's not that good.

100 hours - you can learn to drive a car or, believe it or not, fly a light aircraft. In other words, you can get from home to the supermarket and back without accidents, but you're not exactly ready for the Monaco GP.

Now, I'm guessing here but...

10,000 hours - full-time go professional
3000-5000 hours - permanent low-dan professional who makes most of their money from teaching or journalism
1000 hours - high-dan amateur
300-500 hours - amateur shodan
100 hours - SDK

Please let me know if you agree. Let me know if your experiences match or differ from this scale!
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Magicwand »

Tami wrote:Now, I'm guessing here but...

10,000 hours - full-time go professional
3000-5000 hours - permanent low-dan professional who makes most of their money from teaching or journalism
1000 hours - high-dan amateur
300-500 hours - amateur shodan
100 hours - SDK

Please let me know if you agree. Let me know if your experiences match or differ from this scale!

i dont think i can ever become professional because i dont have what it takes.
everyone can reach 7 dan but professional is only for selected few who already have that brain.
i read some of your thought and felt that you have good understanding of go.
if you read professional comments and variations then you will improve very quickly to 5d.
IMO your scale is useless because everyone have different brain.
it didnt take much effort to ace through algebra. i see others who are having very hard time on algebra.
we are two different people who have different aptitude of learning certain thing.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

I think I am improving steadily, as much as can be expected with the amount of time I invest: about 40 hours of study since 26 October.

I have recently had a number of games where I have definitely felt that I have been playing on a higher level than before, where I've been able to put my knowledge and reading together in a coherent way. That is satisfying.

Unfortunately, I also have a lot of horrible games in which I simply do not play anywhere close to my mark. Likely the main reason is playing long past midnight. I spend the daytime working, practicing music and studying go; by the time I log on to KGS, I am usually exhausted. It is like giving an extra stone or two in handicap - my fighting spirit is weaker, and I find it hard to play rationally.

So, I have either to divide my free day time between playing and studying, or I have to play in the day, and study at night, or simply accept that I can't play as much as I want to. Obviously studying late at night is not ideal, but it might not be as demanding as trying to play.

In any case, I cannot go on playing at 2AM against some well-rested youngster in Germany or America.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

It's high time to update this journal. Far from losing interest in go, my enjoyment of and interest in the game have been increasing, but I find that once you have decided on a path, the best thing to do is to walk it, not talk it, hence the lack of updates.

I appreciate it that quite a few people have taken the time to read my thoughts, and to offer comments. For what it's worth, my long-term aim is to become a high-dan player and to be able to teach go for a reasonable fee, should the need arise. My other aim is simply to become more skilful - "because it's there".

Since October I have definitely become stronger. This is shown by the steady crawl upwards of my rank graph, and more importantly by the sense of improved clarity that I have now. I feel much more aware of what is going on, and better able to act because of that.

I have read quite a few books, but the ones that have helped me most have been slightly surprising, because they came from the budget end of the go shelf in the bookshop. One is "No Time Tsumego" (ノータイム詰碁) from MyCom and the other is Takeo Shinji's "Introduction to the Fuseki" series (布石入門 and 布石から中盤) from Seibido.

The tsumego book is a little pocket book of 360 life and death problems, and consistently strikes the right balance between being easy but not trivial, and challenging but not frustrating. I've been bringing down quite a few large dragons because of an awareness of weak points that has been enhanced by this handy little collection.

Takao Shinji's go series is brilliant. I can't wait to read the next volume, which is about the middlegame. He states the most important principles for each stage of the game and then shows you how to apply them in various situations that occur frequently in amateur games. Other books do the same thing, but I have not read another book with such excellent structure and purpose. It is as though Takao-sensei is sitting at the goban, drilling you thoroughly and making certain than you have understood. A lot of thought has clearly been put into selecting the exercises and presenting them in a progressive order. I would recommend this book to non-Japanese readers, too, because the examples, rather than the text, do the talking.

I have noticed a couple of interesting things about playing on KGS around the 1k/1d level. First, Japanese players seem stronger relatively speaking then other players of the same rank. They make few tactical errors and they play in good shape; it can be very frustrating trying to catch up if you fall behind, because they simpy don't leave as many weaknesses behind as others at that level. Why then aren't they 2d or higher? Is it that many of them, perhaps being freeters or students without regular work commitments, don't know when to quit and go to bed, and play on, with decreasing success, as the night wears on? Or do they tend to play mainly with other Japanese, and maintain a 2k-2d "bubble" that is markedly different from the other KGSers? I wish I knew!

The other interesting point is that very few people play positively. The most popular style appears to be the amateur version of "amashi", which is a high-level strategy in the hands of a pro. As I believe Charles Matthews once wrote on SL, this kind of thing tends to peak around 1k. By this, I mean that most opponents seem to play with the main purpose of preventing me from getting territory or influence, rather than creating anything of their own. This is manifested in premature invasions and moves too close to thickness. Happily, I think I'm becoming more adept at punishing this kind of play.

Another funny thing is that you can tell a lot about the person you are playing by the way they play. I often have an inkling of impending escapage or departing without saying "thanks" from the kinds of sucker punches that have been thrown my way as the game has developed.

Changing subject, the Kaya alpha is going very well. It will likely become my favourite place to play when all the features have been set into motion. I do like KGS a lot, and one must have gratitude toward WMS for offering such a high-quality server for free, but I can only welcome the arrival of a server that will probably improve greatly on KGS in the crucial areas of ranking system and escaper handling. I have no doubt that KGS ranks change too slowly and unpredictably (this is my conclusion, having read both sides of the arguments carefully), and while I am seldom victim of escapers, I can only have sympathy for honest players of around 15k-7k (where escapolgy is apparently rife). Perhaps a rivalry between Kaya and KGS will benefit everybody by spurring both sides on to improving their product.

Lastly, I'm sure there is no "magic bullet" for improvement. Lots of things help you to improve, all you have to do it get on with them and remember that it takes months and years of sustained effort, not mere days.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

Make a note to myself: never play past 1AM when tired and upset. It's asking for trouble.

Sadly, bad things happen sometimes, and there are occasions where in't best simply to take a break and let the situation pass.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Knotwilg »

Walk the path, don't talk the path ... Yes, I believe talking the path is probably the most important reason why people don't walk it. Extrovert people (like me) seek recognition by others and are good at communication. So, if they get the pat on the back for good talking, there's no need for walking.

I'm less positive than magicwand. I believe any reasonably smart and studioues person can reach 5d. IMO 6d and 7d are those who were either just a little bit short on smartness or zeal enough to make it, or started too late, or never were in a condition to make it. 7d is really strong. No doubt a professional can destroy a 7d but rather by the fact that the pro is seasoned in the high circles.

For me or Tami or the likes of us, it must be possible to become 5d in a matter of years, but then by persevered playing, analyzing and studying. Forums are a waste of time. Enjoyable at times, tangent for motivation perhaps, but mostly distracting and giving a false believe of business.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by daal »

Knotwilg wrote:Walk the path, don't talk the path ... Yes, I believe talking the path is probably the most important reason why people don't walk it. Extrovert people (like me) seek recognition by others and are good at communication. So, if they get the pat on the back for good talking, there's no need for walking.... Forums are a waste of time. Enjoyable at times, tangent for motivation perhaps, but mostly distracting and giving a false believe of business.


While there is probably some truth in this, I don't think that walking and talking are mutually exclusive (for most people ;-) ), and while you can waste time on forums, forums themselves are not a waste of time. In particular, this thread, in which Tami documents and shares her insights about the game is hardly a waste of time. On the contrary, it seems to me likely that putting her thoughts into words will help her achieve her goals of getting stronger and learning to teach.

Of course it's another matter entirely if one spends more time on the forum than studying go (looks in mirror :-? ).
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

Yes, I think Dieter threw the baby out with the bathwater, although I can understand his point of view. Certainly, it takes self-discipline to avoid wasting time on forums.

But, with some discipline, they can surely be extremely useful. In my recent experience:

* I learned a lot from the recent thread I started a 3-3 pseudo-joseki, more than I had bargained for, in fact.
* It's reassuring to know that I am not alone, and that others get frustrated sometimes, too.
* I found out about some good books from here.
* I am interested in how other players are doing
* Sad to report, possibly, but this forum gives me some kind of social hub - it's not easy for a 40ish Englishwoman to relate to the usual clientele at a Japanese go salon, and it's probably not easy for them either.

Anyway, I'm off to play go now :-)
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Knotwilg »

Mind you that I do not consider forums a waste of time: Tami has listed some great reasons to be on a forum. Forums are great for interaction. For improvement, I believe they are very remotely helpful at best and downright counterproductive most of the time.

Forums on improvement are in my opinion mostly self deluding.

I'll look at myself: what have all those hours on Sensei's Library done to my go? I sometimes come across interesting pages, thinking "I should learn this", only to find out I've written them myself. Clearly all the editing did little to my incorporating the concept.

I remember distinctly when I improved most: in 1999-2001, pre-SL, when I played a series of games against a friend-rival, where handicaps would increase with victories. I'd analyze all those games thoroughly and vowed to DO something with the knowledge next game. I didn't communicate about it back then.

Clearly I care more about communication than improvement these days.
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Re: Tami's Way

Post by Tami »

Sometimes I feel that I learn very slowly, while just about everybody else learns quickly. Maybe it's just an illusion, but sometimes I get so fed up with it.

The thing that I particularly dislike it knowing that my opponent is overplaying or being unreasonable or unprincipled in some way, and yet not quite being able to punish it. Do I try too hard? Is it ME who is being unreasonable and unprincipled?

When will things finally make sense?
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