Doubling Cube applied to Go

[hyperpape]

My point wasn't really about what proportion of players use any given rule. I think of the doubling cube as akin to komi or handicaps so far as you can play the game without them, but they're a change that adds something. Not even anything unambiguously good.

And I think because they're a change to the existing rules, it's pointless to talk about what proportion of players use them--it's up in the air whether they're a good idea.

[Mef]

There are also many people who play go without handicaps, and millions throughout history who played it without komi.

I object to the idea that the doubling cube is part of "standard backgammon", it is only in a myopic view that takes New York as the center of the world and doesn't look far beyond. I am pretty sure that the majority of players doesn't use it.

The introduction of a doubling cube to Backgammon has a far bigger impact to the game than komi had on Go. But the rationale behind making an assessment of the winning percentage so important is clearly the role of randomness in the game. In late endgame in Go you could safely double even when you are ahead only a little, and even earlier the small lead can easily translate into very high winning percentages (especially for better players). No randomness -> no doubling cube.

Most serious/competitive backgammon is played in match form (a game to 7 points, etc) and the doubling cube is not only used, but vital to strategy. The value of most boardplay errors will pale in comparison to the size of cube errors. From my experience, online match play will almost always use a cube as long as it is meaningful (that is, not a 1 point game), real-life casual play won't use a cube if you're playing a game to 1 (fun, but not as exciting), but may if you are playing a game to more than 1. I would say it's quite reasonable to claim that the doubling cube is a part of standard backgammon.

[palapiku]

Most serious/competitive backgammon is played in match form (a game to 7 points, etc) and the doubling cube is not only used, but vital to strategy. The value of most boardplay errors will pale in comparison to the size of cube errors. From my experience, online match play will almost always use a cube as long as it is meaningful (that is, not a 1 point game), real-life casual play won't use a cube if you're playing a game to 1 (fun, but not as exciting), but may if you are playing a game to more than 1. I would say it's quite reasonable to claim that the doubling cube is a part of standard backgammon.

a myopic view that takes New York as the center of the world

Most Backgammon players don't use the doubling cube. It is a standard part of Western backgammon, just like tapir said. This is like saying that pass stones are a standard part of Go.

[Mef]

Most serious/competitive backgammon is played in match form (a game to 7 points, etc) and the doubling cube is not only used, but vital to strategy. The value of most boardplay errors will pale in comparison to the size of cube errors. From my experience, online match play will almost always use a cube as long as it is meaningful (that is, not a 1 point game), real-life casual play won't use a cube if you're playing a game to 1 (fun, but not as exciting), but may if you are playing a game to more than 1. I would say it's quite reasonable to claim that the doubling cube is a part of standard backgammon.

a myopic view that takes New York as the center of the world

Most Backgammon players don't use the doubling cube. It is a standard part of Western backgammon, just like tapir said. This is like saying that pass stones are a standard part of Go.

Pass stones are a poor analogue, a better example would be komi. Komi was introduced in the 20th century, exact implementation of komi varies from ruleset to ruleset, and many casual players do not use it. I would however say that komi is part of standard go.

The modern form of the doubling cube may have been introduced in 1920's New York, and depending on where you play the exact implementation may vary (Crawford's rule, etc). However it is used in world backgammon association's rules, as well as the rules of every major backgammon tournament I cared to look up. Just for kicks I looked up Japanese backgammon (mainly because Takemiya was champion a few years back), and while I could not read a Japanese rulebook, pictures of their events show non-rolled cubes next to the board in the exact location I would expect a doubling cube. Sure, there might be some casual players in the Middle East who choose not to use it, however the doubling cube is not a "New York centric" idea, it is a competitive international backgammon idea.

[palapiku]

Sure, there might be some casual players in the Middle East who choose not to use it

More accurately, the vast majority of backgammon players, who not only "choose not to use it" but have never heard of it. The entire network of "world backgammon associations" has about as much weight as Western go associations do. I think pass stones are a fair analogy.

[entropi]

In 1999 I was developing software for a turkish gaming site which also included backgammon.

We had that feature and it was called "vido".
If you know the rules, the winner of a backgammon party can win either one point or two points (according to some rule-sets, even three points are possible but very very rare).

You get two points if, at the time when you are finished collecting all your stones, your opponent has not yet collected a single stone.

The particular meaning of this doubling cube in backgammon is "I guess I will finish all my stones before you collect a single one. But I don't want to take the risk of throwing terrible dice and losing a won game. If you agree, let's call it a one point win for me now, or if you don't agree, whatever result we have it will count double".

As a matter of fact, it not such an unheard of kind of thing. But it is also far from being standard practise.

[tapir]

Sure, there might be some casual players in the Middle East who choose not to use it, however the doubling cube is not a "New York centric" idea, it is a competitive international backgammon idea.

I would not be surprised if more games are played in a city like Istanbul or Tehran daily than in the whole of the US. "Some casual players" in the Middle East (and elsewhere) are the main demography playing Backgammon, "competitive international backgammon" is a sideshow that most don't even notice.

When I first read about Go in a board games book in Eastern Germany, it gave an introduction about the game but felt obliged to mention the great innovations a Soviet master added to the game of Go. The insistence that Western competitive backgammon with doubling cube is standard backgammon and those others play a simplified version is even more preposterous than the claim about Soviet style Go in the book.

For what it is worth, I played hundreds of backgammon matches (or actually tavla) and never ever did anyone use fancy doubling cubes, the match was best of 9, there was gammon (or actually mars). It may be less appealing to mathematicians this way (less competitive), but ordinary people play games as a pastime. Maybe doubling becomes popular in the Middle East some day (helped by migration and online play), but until then: Do not claim doubling is standard backgammon!

[palapiku]

When I first read about Go in a board games book in Eastern Germany, it gave an introduction about the game but felt obliged to mention the great innovations a Soviet master added to the game of Go.

This sounds way more interesting than bickering about the rules of backgammon. Do you remember what they were?

[shapenaji]

When I first read about Go in a board games book in Eastern Germany, it gave an introduction about the game but felt obliged to mention the great innovations a Soviet master added to the game of Go.

This sounds way more interesting than bickering about the rules of backgammon. Do you remember what they were?

In Soviet bloc, you go.

[hyperpape]

That's how you do your 500th post in style.