Losing feels horrible; winning is just okay

[Dazz]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion :

"Some studies suggest that losses are twice as powerful, psychologically, as gains."

I agree with hyperpape that these losses seem to be more about losses or gains such as betting $100 and losing it as opposed to doubling it. In terms of Go this may be analogous to losing a rank or gaining a rank. If you don't play many rated games on a some servers such as KGS you will have a rank that is easily prone to moving up or down with one ranked game. I know for myself it can feel pretty bad if I move back one rank after losing a game. I think all of us have an idea of what rank we are and if you move back on a server from what rank you were at and where you think you should be it can feel very discouraging. Of course, it can be a great reality check as well if we are having delusions of grandeur

I posted a poll about this a while back here.

I've come to think that much of the pain associated with losing has simply to do with worrying about your rank. For a period of time, I was getting very upset about losing, and it had to do with the fact that I was on the verge of busting through to a higher rank, but wasn't good enough to actually do it. At the moment, I feel that I've improved and although I haven't gotten to the next rank solidly, I'm feeling confident that it will happen sooner or later, so the losses don't bother me so much. It also has to do with the fact that atm, I have the feeling that I am playing good games where interesting and exciting things tend to happen, so when my opponent beats me, hats off to him.

I agree. I think rank is a double-edged sword where it can bring us down from worrying about it too much and getting upset by not moving forward. However, imagine if you didn't have it and were wondering how you were progressing. Our perspectives can be easily skewed by a few wins or losses. Imagine winning 5 games in a row then losing 2 then winning 3 and then losing 3. After losing the last 3 you may have the sense that you are going backwards and become very discouraged about your playing. However, looking at a rank graph would show you that over the last 13 games you were progressing as you won 8 out of your last 13 games. I have looked at some players rank graph on KGS and over year you can see the steady progression upwards between say 5 kyu to 4 kyu. This must be at least somewhat encouraging as you see slow but steady progress.

Personally I feel that Go is one of my gateways to the world - which is why I keep at it.

Sounds intriguing. Could you elaborate?

I am also intrigued.

Too many times, during bad periods, I remember being very angry about getting invaded in a place that should not live and then messing things up and losing. During good periods, if that happenss, I honestly just think "Oh well, I got his back to the wall so he had to do this unreasonable invasion. Now I know what to improve in my game."

I resonate with this statement. What is happening in the rest of my life really affects the psychological impact of a loss. If you are in good state of mind you can take the loss in stride and see it as a learning opportunity but if you are frustrated or feeling down about other areas of your life it is easy to become very upset or discouraged by a lost game. You can project its meaning to be that you are stupid, lazy, or just plain no good at anything. This why I don't put too much faith in the studies mentioned a the start of this post because they cannot account for all the variables that make a loss psychologically twice as powerful (whatever that means) in one case and not in another. However, I do believe losses are great learning experiences for how you deal with disappointment, set backs, and so on and are valuable to our character development.

[Kirby]

Hmm, I try to relate but honestly I look at things completely different than you.

I enjoy the game when I feel like I played well. The way one plays should be the sum of all the things he learned so far about the game, so I feel horrible when I know that the normal me would have beat the me in the game. Don't get me wrong, getting the win is of course the goal of the game, but I find myself often feeling bad about games I won where my opponent played very bad, as well as feeling very good about a gameI lost that I felt was even and well played by both me and my opponent, usually ending in a very small margin. I'd take losing a good game by .5 any day over killing some way-too-deep invasion and winning ...

I think what I'm trying to say is that a kifu is created by two players, and I try to give my best in contributing my part. If I felt I did well, I'm happy... if not, then not

I hear this attitude from time to time - I think topazg claimed to have it, for example.

To me, it sounds like a great attitude to have - idealistic, even... But I simply cannot get myself to think this way - about anything.

I can't get past the idea that, in go, the objective is to win. Everything else is not the objective, but possibly a means to get to the winning state.

In game theoretical terms, go is a zero-sum game: you win or lose. Point differential doesnot matter. Tesuji does not matter. Creativity does not matter. A win matters.

Of course, some may say that there is more to the game than its game theoretical definition. But this seems inefficient to me. I cannot seem to see the other perspective. It sounds nice to like a game for reasons other than its objective, but I cannot seem to relate to this.

It reminds me of the game "Candy Land". You can try to make a game fun by taking away the focus on winning, but I cannot seem to amuse myself with such ventures.

If I am playing a game without thinking of winning, I have to ask myself, "why am I spending my time with this?"

[oren]

I can't get past the idea that, in go, the objective is to win. Everything else is not the objective, but possibly a means to get to the winning state.

The objective of the game is to win. Does that mean you can't enjoy the game itself when you don't win? I think you can separate the goal of the game with the time you spend playing the game. If half the time you're not doing something you enjoy, that can be pretty sad. It's like going to work.

[Kirby]

I can't get past the idea that, in go, the objective is to win. Everything else is not the objective, but possibly a means to get to the winning state.

The objective of the game is to win. Does that mean you can't enjoy the game itself when you don't win? I think you can separate the goal of the game with the time you spend playing the game. If half the time you're not doing something you enjoy, that can be pretty sad. It's like going to work.

It sounds silly, but I can't say I really know what "enjoy" is.

A dictionary search says it means, "Have fun, get pleasure from". When I look up "pleasure", I get, "the feeling of happiness, enjoyment, or satisfaction obtained from experience".

Looking up "enjoyment" brings me to where I started. I can say that, "No, I am not satisfied when I lose."

That leaves me withthe definition of happiness. When I look that up, I get "emotions experienced when in a state of well-being."

I am inclined to say that I am not in a state of well-being when I am losing a game...

So I am not positive I really know what genuine "enjoyment" means, but upon initial investigation, there is some possibility that I do not enjoy the game when I am not winning.

[Dazz]

Kirby:

I can't get past the idea that, in go, the objective is to win. Everything else is not the objective, but possibly a means to get to the winning state.

You seem very focused on the destination. Are you not able to enjoy the journey?

Tesuji does not matter. Creativity does not matter.

I don't think I would play this game if that didn't matter. Part of enjoying the journey is taking joy in the small pleasures along the way. I definitely want to win when I play and struggle to achieve the win but I have taken great satisfaction from close games where I either played some moves I was happy with or killed a group of the opponents that was hard to kill. I seem to remember reading a recent post of yours where you claimed that you loved killing a large group even though it led to you losing. I can relate to that. Sometimes trying to figure out how to kill an opponent's group can become a small challenge in itself that you derive satisfaction from and pleasure in if you accomplish it even if you don't win.

It reminds me of the game "Candy Land". You can try to make a game fun by taking away the focus on winning, but I cannot seem to amuse myself with such ventures.

Not a good analogy. Candy Land is a game of pure luck. What satisfaction could be gained from winning this game or the plays along the way? I derive way more satisfaction from being able to solve a tsumego then I would from winning a game of Candy Land.

If I am playing a game without thinking of winning, I have to ask myself, "why am I spending my time with this?"

I agree with you here but perhaps this quote by Reiner Knizia may help ""The goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important - not the winning."

[Laman]

victories give us reason to play, loses give us reason to get better

i play go to demonstrate my superiority to the rest of the world and to satisfy my need to compete and win
so every loss hurts as hell. luckily i am stubborn enough and firmly convinced about my abilities so that i keep up playing through losing streaks and eventually squeeze out a random win now and then.

(partly joking)

[hyperpape]

Well, the objective of the game is to win. The objective of the player need not be exactly the same, though of course he must try to win.

[Suji]

Well, the objective of the game is to win. The objective of the player need not be exactly the same, though of course he must try to win.

This. I'm probably one of the worst losers in the world. If I lose to someone that I should beat, I'm ticked. If I lose to someone I'm supposed to lose to, I'm ticked at myself. I hate losing. I don't think that anyone on the planet likes to lose, but no one is going to win everything.

The key, I think, is exactly as hyperpape said. Whenever, I focus on the end result of games, I get frustrated. When I try to take something from the game to learn and improve, yes losses are still painful but nowhere near as frustrating.

[perceval]

victories give us reason to play, loses give us reason to get better

i play go to demonstrate my superiority to the rest of the world and to satisfy my need to compete and win
so every loss hurts as hell. luckily i am stubborn enough and firmly convinced about my abilities so that i keep up playing through losing streaks and eventually squeeze out a random win now and then.

(partly joking)

i am at the other end of the spectrum: i like to win, dislike to lose, but none are very strong. in particular when i win i never get an ego boost thinking i am great because its always obvious that my opponent made some big mistake, instead of feeling superior to him i feel vaguely lucky he erred during our game.
When i do lose i am mad at myself for sucking.
I don't feel a need to win over the rest of the world. And i dont progress much, its probably related: my lazyness totally overcome my ego


Totally unrelated, but Laman, your new avatar scares the hell out of me . its painful to read your posts now

[Ortho]

This unbalanced state of pleasure from things (losses make me feel worse than wins make me feel good) only happens to me in situations where I either don't like or have stopped liking the activity. Usually this is because I have an external reason for continuing with the activity other than that I like it. For example, a stock trader might get great pleasure from trading stocks in the beginning even though it is stressful but it is not unusual for this "misery when things go bad/neutral when they go well" mindset to eventually settle in. The problem comes when they feel that they can't stop doing the activity because making money at it/are psychologically addicted to it or whatever.

In my life when I've gotten into situations like this a break from the activity that is unbalanced like this has always turned out to be the answer. Sometimes I return to the activity and sometimes I don't, but I am always happier for having had a break.

[daal]

I can't get past the idea that, in go, the objective is to win. Everything else is not the objective, but possibly a means to get to the winning state.

The objective of the game is to win. Does that mean you can't enjoy the game itself when you don't win? I think you can separate the goal of the game with the time you spend playing the game. If half the time you're not doing something you enjoy, that can be pretty sad. It's like going to work.

It sounds silly, but I can't say I really know what "enjoy" is.

Before you whip out the dictionary, you might think about how you feel when a game starts, when the last big point of the fuseki is taken, when you spot a weakness, when you realize your opponent has taken advantage of one of your weaknesses, when you extricate a group from the clutches of death, when you keep sente in the endgame, when your stone turns the flow in your favor.

Maybe enjoy is not the right word, but these feeling, and not just the feelings after the game is over, are why I play go.

[Dazz]

The objective of the game is to win. Does that mean you can't enjoy the game itself when you don't win? I think you can separate the goal of the game with the time you spend playing the game. If half the time you're not doing something you enjoy, that can be pretty sad. It's like going to work.

It sounds silly, but I can't say I really know what "enjoy" is.

Before you whip out the dictionary, you might think about how you feel when a game starts, when the last big point of the fuseki is taken, when you spot a weakness, when you realize your opponent has taken advantage of one of your weaknesses, when you extricate a group from the clutches of death, when you keep sente in the endgame, when your stone turns the flow in your favor.

Maybe enjoy is not the right word, but these feeling, and not just the feelings after the game is over, are why I play go.

Well said. I would call it the thrill of battle. It is also one of the reasons I like to play go. If winning the game is more important than the thrill of battle it seems that sandbagging is the answer, but don't expect to experience what daal describes above.

[Mivo]

This unbalanced state of pleasure from things (losses make me feel worse than wins make me feel good) only happens to me in situations where I either don't like or have stopped liking the activity.

This post was good and thoughtful. I've been pondering it on and off today and I think there is possibly quite a bit truth in what you wrote.

One thought I had, though, is about how you can tell the difference between not liking an activity anymore and having gotten to the edge of your comfort zone where, in order to make further progress, you have to face some "pain". But I'm not sure if that is true. In my first half year with Go, when progress was fast and plentiful, I always had fun and was never frustrated even when I lost. The frustration only came with prolonged setbacks (or lack of noticeable progress, which is probably a more accurate way of putting it). Does this mean I stopped liking Go, or does it mean I may have a behaviour flaw that causes me to give up too quickly and have unrealistic expectations?

Differently put, how do you know the difference between a healthy, necessary struggle (is struggle ever necessary or healthy?) and a loss of interest where you just hang onto something for whatever reason? Is it realistic to expect that you'll always have fun with a skill-based, competitive activity that requires continued effort in order to improve? I'm trying to remember if I ever engaged in a past time activity that remained enjoyable at all times even when it started to require commitment, dedication or regular effort, and I can't seem to come up with anything.

Then again, I think my attention span has always been a little limited and I tend to jump from activity to activity rather than sticking with one thing all the time. My professional life used to be like that in the first ten'ish years, which were then followed up by ten years of doing the same thing -- that's where I currently am at, and I don't feel very satisfied with it, but lack the opportunities (probably not true and just an excuse I make to myself), energy and possibly courage to make stark changes -- which may be how some people feel about Go: all the time they invested, the risk of regret later on, and so on.

Maybe this boils down to the question if it's possible to only experience one side of the two that everything has. Like, only wanting the yin and never the yang, kind of.

[moosh]

I can't get past the idea that, in go, the objective is to win. Everything else is not the objective, but possibly a means to get to the winning state.

In game theoretical terms, go is a zero-sum game: you win or lose. Point differential doesnot matter. Tesuji does not matter. Creativity does not matter. A win matters.

If I am playing a game without thinking of winning, I have to ask myself, "why am I spending my time with this?"

Hey Kirby, I wanna reply to the feeling you described here.
I like to think about the term "a game of Go" as two different things. Two things that affect directly the difference between our views (or so I think).

1. A game of Go as in the game me and my opponent are playing right now. the stones on the (virtual) board between us. In this game of go, the objective indeed is to win, just like you wrote. All your moves should lead to this. All your calculations are made to give you the lead, in order to get that W when the game is finished. This is how I think you see it. Now, other than that we have...
2. A game of Go as in a more general sense. The game that is defined by those simple rules, that every player that plays it tries to master. Your goal in participating in this game is to master as much as you can. To learn, to improve, to look up to some place and know that you will get there, some day. In this "game of Go" we have all the games of the first kind that we play, and it changes the meaning of each and every one of those games. I'll explain why.

If you feel that you play 2, then during a game of 1 you try to achieve more in order to complete 2. This is easier to explain in new players' games.

Take this-

$$W
$$ -------------
$$ - . . X O 1 .
$$ - . . a X O .
$$ - . . . X O .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ -------------
$$ - . . X O 1 .
$$ - . . a X O .
$$ - . . . X O .[/go]

If you play 1, then missing 'a', leading to playing there, leading (theoretically) to you losing the game, will be devastating. If you play 2, then you might not feel happy about the loss, but now you learned that you have to block at 'a'. Next time this will happen, and you will remember this, you will be very happy. You have learned, implemented it into your game, and now thanks to that you won. That is a much better feeling than, say, white playing 'a' but you still winning, and next time maybe forgetting it again... Even if you won the second game as well.

Now just think about the difference between us and 7-9 dan players... Think about the difference between us and professional players... There is so much to learn! Maybe it's no longer things like 'a' from the previous diagram, but instead it might be correct use of force, or maximizing aji, or maybe just playing mid-game for a better position in endgame. Ever read a book where the professional player says "'a' only move", or "if w play here, b play there", and you are completely baffeled as to why it is like that? Just like 'a' from the diagram to that new player. This is what keeps me going, and this is why I enjoy good games - where I played all those things I learned successfully, even if I lost, because next game I'll play what I learned from this game and get a better result. It brings me a bit closer to (theoretically) mastering the game. The fact that you never will is even better, because (again, theoretically) you will be interested in it your whole life.

Sorry about such a long post, and I hope that I got my point across...

[palapiku]

I addressed the subject of learning in my original post. I can certainly see how learning is a good incentive to keep playing. But I also see many people who don't seem to be learning, don't seem to be improving, don't seem to be interested in improving and still play a lot and enjoy it.