I did not renew my AGA membership.

[bearzbear]

No I am not *trolling*.

Sorry. Easy way to put what I am saying in the round file.

Ok, so now you have said ur names, but I can not read minds nor can I assume that any given name here is related to one's real name. Nor do I personally keep a log of "who's who" in the AGA. Sorry, I apologize for not knowing who you are.

Steve, your reaction is one of a highly insecure individual. Calling me names? Why? I am not vague at all. I made it clear what "my problems" might be.

Are you all afraid to "self rate" the AGA?
State what you think of the job it is doing?
Why?

Should this not be talked about?
If not this, then what?

I think I made it clear, the AGA has a problem in terms of it's (saying it again but using different words, in the hope it will resonate) approach to matters such as MEMBER RELATIONS & SERVICE and REPRESENTING GO PLAYERS to the population at large. Furthermore, I am saying that it is an institutional problem (of long standing) which is real. Worse still, it is obvious, but apparently you and others are blissfully unaware or choose to prentend so.

Steve, in particular, if you think that the AGA is rating a "7" you are believing your own 'press releases'. It's not.

And again, my minor frustrations with dealing directly with the AGA mirror what others have said to me before during and after the time I interacted. What happened to me is unimportant compared to what it indicates.

Can you not understand that your problems are GENERAL in nature, and not specific to any single incremental point?? Open your eyes and minds, and look around.

Ok, Go analogy, ur playing the wrong joseki the wrong way, over and over and insisting that it is ok because this is how you have always played it. Got it now?

_-_-


PS. deal with the message, not the messenger.

[bearzbear]

Unless Bearzbear identified himself as "Bearzbear" in his communications with the AGA, I'd say those of us here who are involved in the AGA can't really be condemned for not recognizing Bearzbear or his/her complaints.
<snip>

Andy? Ok. I specifically avoided singling out ANY person or part of the organization. Hope you noticed.

I am not condemning any person or persons.

What I am talking about is the ORGANIZATIONAL PERSONNA, MAKE-UP, ETHOS, FUNCTION, FOCUS, EXECUTION...etc...

For example, right now, none of you is open to any input.
You keep wanting the "input" in a pre-specified manner that is not appropriate or useful. Valuable input was given by someone else in this thread, and ignored promptly. (as far as anyone reading can tell)

How about now? Catching on?

_-_-

_-_-

[vash3g]

I think I made it clear, the AGA has a problem in terms of it's (saying it again but using different words, in the hope it will resonate) approach to matters such as MEMBER RELATIONS & SERVICE and REPRESENTING GO PLAYERS to the population at large. Furthermore, I am saying that it is an institutional problem (of long standing) which is real. Worse still, it is obvious, but apparently you and others are blissfully unaware or choose to prentend so.

Sorry, im a bit fussy still. Can you break it down into less vague terms for me? You see member relations and representing go players are big topics and im not sure how the AGA has problems with these for you.

[Tofu]

This sounds a lot like this.

"You have a problem!"

"What problem?"

"Nothing specific, but you definitely have a problem!"

"Ok, can you help me fix the problem?"

"No! If you don't know what it is, then you're beyond help!"

Seriously. OP, it sounds like you have a legit problem, but without letting people know A) What you expected when you joined (with specifics) and B) What happened to let down your expectations (with specifics), there is little anyone can do. No one can read your mind, you need to be more clear.

[hyperpape]

If you're not trying to troll us, ask yourself the following question: suppose your reader hasn't had bad experiences communicating with the AGA, would what you're saying provide them any evidence that there's a problem or be convincing?

It obviously wouldn't. Try to fix that, and we can have a productive conversation.

[shapenaji]

Bearzbear:

If you are not trolling, then you are simply being condescending and rude.

There's really no reason for you to be angry here, clearly your issues (whatever they are) are not new.

Daniel responded extremely politely to your condescension, and you more or less spit in his face. I'm not sure what your goal is, but saying "there's a problem, but I'm not going to tell you what it is, and let me ask you a few leading questions" is hardly the way to come to any resolution.

My only conclusion is that you're trying to get other people to join you in quitting the AGA. But I really don't see how you'd convince them if you don't tell them WHY they should.

The AGA organizes tournaments, those tournaments are "fun", as long as they do that, they'll have members. If you have an issue with the side-benefits, then enumerate those. I just don't get how a go player would suddenly go from being a tournament player to dropping off the map and never playing in tournaments again.

EDIT: I myself have been frustrated with the AGA in the past, but I try to ground my petulance in fact.

[bearzbear]

Ok, ok.

Putting on tournaments is one role.

I am not trying to be condescending.
Apparently I am doing an ok job at it though... Hmmm...

Let me try to say what the AGA perhaps might be able to do?

- create new and modern and perhaps interactive introduction(s) to the game for A) children, B) adults. Learn the lesson from Hikaru?

- develop and operate a "Forum" like this one for the AGA. (imo should have been done at least a decade ago, probably two)

- market and promote the game via larger media outlets: TV, Radio & print. That should read "effectively market and promote".

- establish and make reliable useful and solid associations with major professional Go organizations. (yes, the new Korean initiative has potential)

- develop a modern and interesting website (incorporate interactive elements, including graphics and Flash content) Example: do better than Jan Vandersteen's site, that's just one person's work.

- create, and place videos with semi-pro or professional quality programming for YouTube and other sites

- Use modern methods for internal database control, entry and tracking, including emails (via a central point of distribution to personnel in AGA)

- use modern methods for ease of communicating with members, including mailing control software, and means to text/graphic to modern phones.

- import content from non-USA go sources, not just short "news stories".
That is too *dry*.

- find ways to, and implement policies and means that encourage and incorporate the talents and abilities of members who have expertise in any and all appropriate areas.


There are a few, off the top of my head "bullet points".

Please don't come back and tell me how this has been done already?

Hope this gives some idea?

_-_-

[vash3g]

**NOTE: There are no AGA employees. Only Volunteers. Some things take real work and planning.**

Has Been Done:

- establish and make reliable useful and solid associations with major professional Go organizations. (yes, the new Korean initiative has potential)

Our International VP is amazing. He knows the all top people overseas that are go related. He is doing a HELL of a job that never gets mentioned. Check out the 2011 International Report. You dont hear about this much because its kinda boring to the lay man.

- use modern methods for ease of communicating with members, including mailing control software, and means to text/graphic to modern phones.

The E-Journal doesn't count? Twitter feed for the EJ (@theaga) or Go Congress(@gocongress) don't count?
SMS has been looked into and is expensive outside of a big event.

- import content from non-USA go sources, not just short "news stories". That is too *dry*.

E-Journal editor would give you large reports on things, but studies have shown people dont want huge articles in their inbox every week/day.

- Use modern methods for internal database control, entry and tracking, including emails (via a central point of distribution to personnel in AGA)

The new membership manager (read: huge ass database) has been updated for the 21st century online and is the best place for the administration to assist the rest of the organization.

In Progress:

- develop a modern and interesting website (incorporate interactive elements, including graphics and Flash content) Example: do better than Jan Vandersteen's site, that's just one person's work.

This has been a work in progress since the 2011 Go Congress when we actively started on the new site. Its a huge thing and cant be slapped together in a month or two.

Will Never Happen

- develop and operate a "Forum" like this one for the AGA. (imo should have been done at least a decade ago, probably two)

Why duplicate something that works? You found this ok? 12 other networks have subforums here: KGS/IGS/Kaya, American/Australian/European/Singapore Go Associations

Will Happen If We Win Lottery or Get Funded by Bill Gates/Google

- market and promote the game via larger media outlets: TV, Radio & print. That should read "effectively market and promote".

All of these need money to keep them afloat. The AGA has money to put on its own events and receive donations in these forms. Check the annual reports to see how much the AGA makes per year. The last few have not been good to us.


Needs Volunteers

- create new and modern and perhaps interactive introduction(s) to the game for A) children, B) adults. Learn the lesson from Hikaru?

- create, and place videos with semi-pro or professional quality programming for YouTube and other sites

- find ways to, and implement policies and means that encourage and incorporate the talents and abilities of members who have expertise in any and all appropriate areas.

Will you assist the AGA in helping? Currently no one has stepped up to do this.

[daniel_the_smith]

bearzbear,

Please tell us what you tried to do, and how badly it went, and what could have improved things. PM me if you don't want to say publicly. In return I can tell you if this is an issue I'm already aware of or not, and I might just have a rough idea of how prevalent it is, and what the organization is attempting to do to fix it.

Of course, if you just came here to vent, that's fine too.

This request may seem superfluous to you, but I assure you it's not. Board members are not omniscient, we do not know what is going on unless people tell us. Unless whoever you interacted with also noticed there was a problem, they would have had no reason to tell anyone else about it, and there is no reason to expect us to already know about it.

We know there are problems, and we know they can't be fixed overnight. The best we can do until we have a systemic solution is to pick up the balls that get dropped as we find them. The more such balls people tell us details about, the better we can make the systemic solution(s).

Ah, and after I wrote that you made another post.

Let me try to say what the AGA perhaps might be able to do?

- create new and modern and perhaps interactive introduction(s) to the game for A) children, B) adults. Learn the lesson from Hikaru?

Volunteer(s) and/or funds needed.

- develop and operate a "Forum" like this one for the AGA. (imo should have been done at least a decade ago, probably two)

It has been discussed recently. (My own opinion is that L19 is great and I don't want to monitor another forum, but that may just be me.) A website upgrade is in progress and this may be feasible soonish.

- market and promote the game via larger media outlets: TV, Radio & print. That should read "effectively market and promote".

Volunteer(s) and/or funds needed.

- establish and make reliable useful and solid associations with major professional Go organizations. (yes, the new Korean initiative has potential)

Honestly, I think this is one thing that we actually do do OK.

- develop a modern and interesting website (incorporate interactive elements, including graphics and Flash content) Example: do better than Jan Vandersteen's site, that's just one person's work.

I agree. We are switching to a CMS. Further improvements will hopefully be forthcoming once that is complete.

- create, and place videos with semi-pro or professional quality programming for YouTube and other sites

I agree, I think this is something we could probably do for a reasonable amount of money. Still, some money and volunteer time is required.

- Use modern methods for internal database control, entry and tracking, including emails (via a central point of distribution to personnel in AGA)

We're in the process of switching over. We have a new database that is very nice. In fact, it's possibly the best thing the organization has done in the past year, and it will make everything we do easier.

- use modern methods for ease of communicating with members, including mailing control software, and means to text/graphic to modern phones.

Yeah, the chapters list is down and believe me, we are all aware of this. :/

- import content from non-USA go sources, not just short "news stories". That is too *dry*.

Volunteer translator/funding/copyright permission needed.

- find ways to, and implement policies and means that encourage and incorporate the talents and abilities of members who have expertise in any and all appropriate areas.

We do this currently, and I personally would actually like to get away from this. Why? Right now, if you want the AGA to do something, the only realistic way for it to happen is to volunteer and do it yourself. This is hard on volunteers and the AGA, too. It would make much more sense for us to pay a professional to do whatever the task is, but that takes money, which we don't have much of. So, right now, my thought is we need to sort of "boot-strap" ourselves up to much larger membership numbers by a) fixing the problems we have dealing with people (so please tell me what yours was!), and b) providing services which cost little and will make people happy, such as getting some original pro educational videos for members, or funding some group lessons (like KGS+, only for AGA members).

ah, vash3g beat me to it. Nice to see we basically are on the same page

[bearzbear]

Look, I am happy that some efforts are being made. Believe me I am.

But it is now 2012, this horse is not just out of the barn, it's down the road and out of sight.

Having watched the AGA from arm's length and farther away for decades, I must relate to you that what you are saying is what has always been said.
Since that has never given much result, don't keep saying the same things?

I do understand what a volunteer organization means. And in past times, that was a very large handicap due to geographic distances. It is still a handicap, but far less than ever before.

Saying that "no one volunteers" is a failure of whomever has stepped into the role of leadership/management.

The first step to fixing this problem is to reach out and ASK FOR HELP.

I was a member for a year, receiving everything that every other member got, I never got such a request. How one requests is another issue, and WHAT one requests is equally important.

You need "money" to do video production? Really? Today video production can be done on shareware on a home computer. Are there no video/film professionals who are members who could be asked?

Same thing with websites.

Someone just pointed out this site:
http://unlimitedgo.blogspot.com/

I have never seen it before. Better than the AGA. One guy.
Are you telling me that there are NO wiz kids with web chops or IT pros who are also AGA members?? C'mon...

My point on the forum is NOT if one should be started NOW, but that it's been 10-20years since the time was right for one to be started. AGA didn't. AGA didn't start a Go server either.

Daniel, you can PM me too... btw. Perhaps we should speak on the phone or correspond via email. Maybe after the dust has settled some here and the ideas and issues are laid out more clearly?

IF the problem of participation is truly what is holding the AGA back, maybe the question becomes how can the AGA elicit active participation? Working backwards, why has this (apparently) traditionally been a problem. What can be changed to overcome this issue?

My help? Possible.

_-_-

PS. I have no idea what information you have that says that readers do not want "longer stories". Perhaps this information was developed by asking an improper question, yielding statistically valid results that do not speak to the actual issue? You have to ask the proper question to get the answer that you actually need. Example: I do not want or get "daily" updates from the AGA or any other listserve that I subscribe to - I prefer a "digest" version. In the case of the AGA that could be weekly or bi-weekly for longer and more in depth stories. Or on a website for that matter. Gee, come to think of it, I get emails from a number of professional journals and mags that do just this, send me an email with "teasers" linked to full stories. And wait a second, ya know what? Yep, there are advertisements for products and companies related to the story content right there! Hmmmm...



_-_-

[bearzbear]

bearzbear,

Please tell us what you tried to do, and how badly it went, and what could have improved things. <snip>

<snip> people tell us details about, the better we can make the systemic solution(s).

<snip> whatever the task is, but that takes money, which we don't have much of. So, right now, my thought is we need to sort of "boot-strap" ourselves up to much larger membership numbers by a) fixing the problems we have dealing with people (so please tell me what yours was!), and b) providing services which cost little and will make people happy, such as getting some original pro educational videos for members, or funding some group lessons (like KGS+, only for AGA members).

ah, vash3g beat me to it. Nice to see we basically are on the same page

Yes, you are on the same page.

The PROBLEM in short was that no one at the time I spoke to people (while I was a member) was LISTENING, understanding what was being said, or apparently interested. You can't "fix" this by my being specific.

It is unreasonable to expect members to have to drill through an organization to discover the one or two people who can or will respond properly - especially if you are shunted to the same person or persons by others...

As far as I can see, right now, people are not listening, understanding what is being said, although there is some interest - which is good.

Raising money? Is that really a problem? If it is, then something is not right with the approach that the management is taking, imo. It should be fairly easy to raise money given that the AGA is a not-for-profit org, yes?

Ya know what? I'd also bet that there are current members who are professional fund raisers. Certainly past members.

When I don't know how to do something I find people who do and figure out how to do it, or get their help.

As far as "boot strapping" you're going to have problems when you can't retain members to start with. You can't increase membership when you have a fixed pool of potential members a large percentage of which really don't want to have much to do with the AGA (unless they want to play in tournaments). And, there is nothing new, tangible to offer members. So you have a problem. A bit of Chicken & Egg.

Now, quite frankly very few people are going to want to give you money as things now stand with the AGA (read: participate in a capital program, donate money). So the job is to what did you just say, ah yes, "make the systemic solution(s)".

_-_-

[hyperpape]

Raising money? Is that really a problem? If it is, then something is not right with the approach that the management is taking, imo. It should be fairly easy to raise money given that the AGA is a not-for-profit org, yes?

Are you the dumbest person who has ever visited these boards? Because it's a non-profit, it should have an easy time raising money? In what world is that how things work?

[bearzbear]

Raising money? Is that really a problem? If it is, then something is not right with the approach that the management is taking, imo. It should be fairly easy to raise money given that the AGA is a not-for-profit org, yes?

Are you the dumbest person who has ever visited these boards? Because it's a non-profit, it should have an easy time raising money? In what world is that how things work?

Ummm... yes.

Out here in the real world, yes.

Of course the recipient would have to appear meritorious.

How do you think most not-for-profits survive (other than gov't grants?)

Do you disagree?

_-_-bear

PS. please be civil and don't call me "the dumbest person who has ever visited..." Ok? How about that? Support your position with facts.

[RBerenguel]

I help a "more standard" (not trying to sound bad against the AGA, but I mean NGOs in the standard sense of helping some group or spreading some more human-related message) NGO, who is in charge of helping other NGOs to have modern web pages with solid back-ends and easy to customize. Getting money is a huge pain in the ass, and more in the modern recession. A huge number of NGOs here in Spain and bordering countries have been forced to shut doors because of severe lack of funds.

[p2501]

Raising money? Is that really a problem? If it is, then something is not right with the approach that the management is taking, imo. It should be fairly easy to raise money given that the AGA is a not-for-profit org, yes?

Are you the dumbest person who has ever visited these boards? Because it's a non-profit, it should have an easy time raising money? In what world is that how things work?

Ummm... yes.

Out here in the real world, yes.

Of course the recipient would have to appear meritorious.

How do you think most not-for-profits survive (other than gov't grants?)

Do you disagree?

In his defense, claiming being non-profit solves all monetary problems is very naive.

PS. ... Support your position with facts.

I suggest you do the same.