I did not renew my AGA membership.

[daal]

The PROBLEM in short was that no one at the time I spoke to people (while I was a member) was LISTENING, understanding what was being said, or apparently interested. You can't "fix" this by my being specific.

It is unreasonable to expect members to have to drill through an organization to discover the one or two people who can or will respond properly - especially if you are shunted to the same person or persons by others...

As far as I can see, right now, people are not listening, understanding what is being said, although there is some interest - which is good.

Perhaps people weren't listening because you were making a similar unspecified complaint (The AGA is broken. Why don't you fix it?), with a similar stipulation that no response be deemed adequate. I am not an AGA member, but your posts have convinced me that if people at the AGA weren't listening to you, they probably had good reason.

This is not to say that your perception of the AGA's failings in necessarily wrong, but rather that your way of expressing your dissatisfaction is clearly useless and exasperating to anyone who might be in the position to either help with a specific problem or improve things in general.

While venting may or may not be understandable (like you said, nobody understands what got you so worked up), it's unreasonable for you to expect a set of vague accusations (AGA reps hide behind pseudonyms and always respond the same way to criticism/suggestions) to bring about any change.

[hyperpape]

How do you think most not-for-profits survive (other than gov't grants?)

I'm not sure about most, but many non-profits exist by soliciting donations. And it's really freaking hard! Surprisingly enough, standing on the corner saying "hey girl, I represent a 501(3)(c) organization" is not actually a magic money making trick.

I look at your complaints and hear "from where I'm sitting here in my armchair, this stuff should be easy for you guys." Do you write letters to the editor complaining that you can't understand why no one has cured cancer yet? You don't seem to have any ideas except "someone should do something about the problem."

Hey, I guess that's true. Good work.

P.S. To everyone else, is the AGA a 501(3)(c) organization? I saw that the AGF is, but couldn't find any description of the AGA's status.

[msgreg]

P.S. To everyone else, is the AGA a 501(3)(c) organization? I saw that the AGF is, but couldn't find any description of the AGA's status.

The AGF is a 501(c)3, the AGA is a 501(c)7.

It's in the amended articles of incorporation:
http://www.usgo.org/resources/downloads ... ndment.pdf

Which means the AGA pays no income taxes on exempt-purpose net income.

But donations to the AGA are not deductible.

[bearzbear]

In his defense, claiming being non-profit solves all monetary problems is very naive.

I suggest you do the same.

Ummm... sorry?

Where did I say that?
Obviously, what you have done is taken a reasonable statement and turned it
into hyperbole.

I NEVER said that it would "solve" any or all monetary problems.
I also did not say it would be "easy".

I did say that one can solicit and receive funds as a not-for-profit.

One of the obvious points to be made (which I did) is that the AGA can do much to position itself so that people are more likelyto contribute funds.

Suggest that it is best not to exaggerate in order to attempt to prevail in a discussion.

_-_-

[walpurgis]

You said this:

Raising money? Is that really a problem? If it is, then something is not right with the approach that the management is taking, imo. It should be fairly easy to raise money given that the AGA is a not-for-profit org, yes?

Looking at the above statement...

I also did not say it would be "easy".

Btw, it would still be interesting if you specified what exactly you tried contacting AGA about. Just list the topics and the replies you got (if any). Not what you afterwards think might be worth improving in the long run.

[bearzbear]

<snip>

Perhaps people weren't listening because you were making a similar unspecified complaint (The AGA is broken. Why don't you fix it?), with a similar stipulation that no response be deemed adequate.

Nonsense.
Absurdity itself.

Where did I indicate or write that no response was deemed adequate?
What leap of logic lead you to this conclusion?
Please explain?

How about the first step in terms of a response from the AGA might begin without the inane repetition of the demand to essentially "tell us who did it to you"? Obviously, the thrust of what I am trying to get across is that there is a much broader issue to deal with. Surely you were able to perceive this? Yes?

I am not an AGA member, but your posts have convinced me that if people at the AGA weren't listening to you, they probably had good reason.

Well, perhaps you would like to paraphrase what I wrote and turn it into something that they would want to listen to? I am serious. I am willing to learn how to put these thoughts across in a way that will get "people" like those running the AGA to better understand and embrace them.

Show me please.

This is not to say that your perception of the AGA's failings in necessarily wrong, but rather that your way of expressing your dissatisfaction is clearly useless and exasperating to anyone who might be in the position to either help with a specific problem or improve things in general.

How so?
Why is it exasperating?
What I said is pretty clear.
Others who have read this but not posted feel otherwise...

A better question is, IF what I am saying is true (a better point of discussion, btw) then why is it so?

While venting may or may not be understandable (like you said, nobody understands what got you so worked up), it's unreasonable for you to expect a set of vague accusations (AGA reps hide behind pseudonyms and always respond the same way to criticism/suggestions) to bring about any change.

Heck, I'm not particularly worked up at all. Really.

If general concepts are "vague" for you, then Go is not going to be the game for you I would think. Focusing on symptoms and "specifics" does not ever address the underlying basis and causal factors. Imo, it is necessary to avoid the "specifics" and not get bogged down in tactics, leave that alone until the strategy is understood and the concepts that form the foundation for the strategy is clear.

_-_-bear


PS. it is funny how people read and pick things out to focus upon. The discussion of the AGA reps "hiding" behind pseudonyms, came about because THEY kept asking me what my email was so that they could somehow correct the terrible 'wrong'. To which I responded that no one of them had at that point said who they were or what their role in the AGA was... and regarding the response, well yes it has been rather consistently the same. Hasn't it?

[bearzbear]

You said this:

Raising money? Is that really a problem? If it is, then something is not right with the approach that the management is taking, imo. It should be fairly easy to raise money given that the AGA is a not-for-profit org, yes?

Looking at the above statement...

I also did not say it would be "easy".

Btw, it would still be interesting if you specified what exactly you tried contacting AGA about. Just list the topics and the replies you got (if any). Not what you afterwards think might be worth improving in the long run.

Ooops... I did say "fairly easy". Not quite easy. But fairly easy.

Ok, let me amend, a non-zero potential.

Fairly easy compared to doing nothing... btw.

I gave a long list of "topics".
But I keep saying, it's not any specific item - those are symptoms.
It's the overall picture that is not so good.

Go analogy: "tell us which move you are having a problem with, we can fix that move"?

It's not any one move, it's how you think about the game, the fuseki is slow, joseki is misplayed, etc... Sure, you are on the Go board, playing the game called Go, but the moves ur making are inefficient, slow and not terribly sophisticated as go moves go.

Is it good enough to just play at a middle single digit kyu level?
Sure, for a person.
What would a strong player looking at a middle digit kyu player that has not advanced their game in 20 years say or think about that player?
How could they possibly help that player realize that there was something basic about their game that was *never* going to work better if they keep doing the same thing over and over??
What if that player kept insisting that they are doing everything fine?
What if that player made statements about what they were doing and lists of what they were studying and going to do differently?
What if over time nothing much really changed in that players game?
What then?

Would you try to tell that player that their approach to the game was wrong??
Would you try to talk to them in general terms about how to think about the game??. Try to bring some enlightenment? Impart a deeper understanding?
What would you do?

Most people just shake their heads - those who know and can see - and walk away.
Those 75%-90% who drop their membership. Those people.

But I'm suggesting that the AGA has been playing the same middle digit kyu "game" for decades.

Ok now?

_-_-bearzbear

[badukJr]

Hi, I am former AGA member, membership lapsed in 2008

bearzbear,

Please tell us what you tried to do, and how badly it went, and what could have improved things. PM me if you don't want to say publicly. In return I can tell you if this is an issue I'm already aware of or not, and I might just have a rough idea of how prevalent it is, and what the organization is attempting to do to fix it.

Of course, if you just came here to vent, that's fine too.

This request may seem superfluous to you, but I assure you it's not. Board members are not omniscient, we do not know what is going on unless people tell us. Unless whoever you interacted with also noticed there was a problem, they would have had no reason to tell anyone else about it, and there is no reason to expect us to already know about it.

We know there are problems, and we know they can't be fixed overnight. The best we can do until we have a systemic solution is to pick up the balls that get dropped as we find them. The more such balls people tell us details about, the better we can make the systemic solution(s).

Ah, and after I wrote that you made another post.

Let me try to say what the AGA perhaps might be able to do?

- create new and modern and perhaps interactive introduction(s) to the game for A) children, B) adults. Learn the lesson from Hikaru?

Volunteer(s) and/or funds needed.

You should develop project ideas first, then ask for volunteers and funding for specific ideas next. Many people will ignore volunteering if you will just "Help out the AGA."

- establish and make reliable useful and solid associations with major professional Go organizations. (yes, the new Korean initiative has potential)

Honestly, I think this is one thing that we actually do do OK.

Acutally, it makes me disappointed that AGA resources are used for this. Including the pro system, AGA currently supports super new beginners and the top 1% of amateurs very well. There are very few resources available for 15k-5d players.

- develop a modern and interesting website (incorporate interactive elements, including graphics and Flash content) Example: do better than Jan Vandersteen's site, that's just one person's work.

I agree. We are switching to a CMS. Further improvements will hopefully be forthcoming once that is complete.

Please please, give a preview of this. The other person's comment on this was also very rude, I thought.

Kaya.gs did a good job giving a youtube video or other screenshots. This made people very excited. They now donate to Kaya and also volunteer their time to add code to the source repository. This ties back into what I am saying about creating project ideas then advertising volunteer positions for them.

Please visit the Competitive Scrabble website, cross tables. They have player bios with rank graphs, and a place to upload commented games from tournaments. Many strong players upload their own commented games. Why can't AGA have something like this? The scrabble community is much smaller...
http://www.cross-tables.com/
http://www.cross-tables.com/results.php?p=583
http://www.cross-tables.com/annotated.php?a=80#0#

It pains my heart to see a nice resource like that, not available in my mind game.

- create, and place videos with semi-pro or professional quality programming for YouTube and other sites

I agree, I think this is something we could probably do for a reasonable amount of money. Still, some money and volunteer time is required.

Again, advertise this idea. Make a couple test cases. The KBA has a whole series of videos like boom your sense up, and others for higher level on wbaduk site. Recording to an AGA youtube account free audio lessons on KGS by AGA members would be a huge improvement, and would just be riffing on an available source of information.

- Use modern methods for internal database control, entry and tracking, including emails (via a central point of distribution to personnel in AGA)

We're in the process of switching over. We have a new database that is very nice. In fact, it's possibly the best thing the organization has done in the past year, and it will make everything we do easier.

Preview! Get people excited! You gotta sell yourself well to get those greenbacks!

- import content from non-USA go sources, not just short "news stories". That is too *dry*.

Volunteer translator/funding/copyright permission needed.

GoGameGuru? Also, someone said that studies show people prefer short stories? Source? I love the long articles at GoGameGuru.

- find ways to, and implement policies and means that encourage and incorporate the talents and abilities of members who have expertise in any and all appropriate areas.

We do this currently, and I personally would actually like to get away from this. Why? Right now, if you want the AGA to do something, the only realistic way for it to happen is to volunteer and do it yourself. This is hard on volunteers and the AGA, too. It would make much more sense for us to pay a professional to do whatever the task is, but that takes money, which we don't have much of. So, right now, my thought is we need to sort of "boot-strap" ourselves up to much larger membership numbers by a) fixing the problems we have dealing with people (so please tell me what yours was!), and b) providing services which cost little and will make people happy, such as getting some original pro educational videos for members, or funding some group lessons (like KGS+, only for AGA members).

ah, vash3g beat me to it. Nice to see we basically are on the same page

[/quote]

Maybe you have too much red tape, is what you are saying? I am VP on an NPO, I've seen organizations crumble because the board becomes too full of people that just like to pass new rules and slow decision making processes down. It is much better to have a fluid process.

Also, I know this bear guy is being a jerk, but some of the self identifying board members here have demonstrated a lack in professionalism. When you have an irate customer, its always better to be professional when dealing with them. Generally they'll calm down. Having a rock solid attitude brings people towards your attitude, whether it be a bad or good attitude. Don't take it so personally in the future.

[daniel_the_smith]

bearzbear,

We know we have problems. Are you venting, or are you trying to help us fix them? You're acting like you're doing us a favor, giving us a big revelation, when actually, we all already know all this stuff. And the one thing you could tell us that we don't know, you won't say anything about. This is not a recipe for a successful interaction.

So if we know this stuff, why isn't it fixed already?

Short answer: turns out, it's a lot harder than you would think.

I've only been a board member for 5 months.

I have a list of things I want the AGA to start/stop doing. When people give me good, concrete suggestions I add to that list. When people tell me, "I did X, I expected Y to happen, but instead Z happened," I mentally add or improve my list of problems that need solutions. When people make vague complaints, I... don't really know what to do about that.

I ran for the board because I had basically the same list of complaints that you seem to. I won because no one else ran.

I haven't accomplished a whole lot yet. I did get the board to start sending "press releases" to the e-journal so people will have some idea what we're up to. This is because lack of communication seems to be one of the worst problems. But there is a lot left to do.

The only way anything gets passed by the board is if it is a concrete proposal with a champion (some board member or AGA official). That's not ideal, but I think it's the way nearly all boards function. The only way anything happens in the organization is if a volunteer does it. Ideas without volunteers already lined up are total non-starters.

I agree that the results of those two facts are unacceptable, that we need to and could be doing much better. I'm trying to fix it, and so are a number of other people inside the organization.

[bearzbear]

Hi, I am former AGA member, membership lapsed in 2008



Also, I know this bear guy is being a jerk, but some of the self identifying board members here have demonstrated a lack in professionalism.

Thanks so very much.

_-_-

[bearzbear]

bearzbear,

We know we have problems. Are you venting, or are you trying to help us fix them? You're acting like you're doing us a favor, giving us a big revelation, when actually, we all already know all this stuff. And the one thing you could tell us that we don't know, you won't say anything about. This is not a recipe for a successful interaction.

So if we know this stuff, why isn't it fixed already?

Short answer: turns out, it's a lot harder than you would think.

I've only been a board member for 5 months.

I have a list of things I want the AGA to start/stop doing. When people give me good, concrete suggestions I add to that list. When people tell me, "I did X, I expected Y to happen, but instead Z happened," I mentally add or improve my list of problems that need solutions. When people make vague complaints, I... don't really know what to do about that.

I ran for the board because I had basically the same list of complaints that you seem to. I won because no one else ran.

I haven't accomplished a whole lot yet. I did get the board to start sending "press releases" to the e-journal so people will have some idea what we're up to. This is because lack of communication seems to be one of the worst problems. But there is a lot left to do.

The only way anything gets passed by the board is if it is a concrete proposal with a champion (some board member or AGA official). That's not ideal, but I think it's the way nearly all boards function. The only way anything happens in the organization is if a volunteer does it. Ideas without volunteers already lined up are total non-starters.

I agree that the results of those two facts are unacceptable, that we need to and could be doing much better. I'm trying to fix it, and so are a number of other people inside the organization.

Daniel,

Thanks so much for writing this.

I would be happy to do whatever I can to help you help the AGA.

Until this very moment in time, I am unaware that any other AGA officer or board member has ever even acknowledged that anything needs to be overhauled.

As one single board member, I do not know what you will be able to get done. I hope it is a lot.

If your profile has an email attached to it I will email you privately.

Thanks.

_-_-bearzbear

EDIT: No email on ur profile, sent one to ur dailyjoseki address

[hyperpape]

Hi, I am former AGA member, membership lapsed in 2008



Also, I know this bear guy is being a jerk, but some of the self identifying board members here have demonstrated a lack in professionalism.

_-_-[/quote] Just to be clear, there are two board members in this thread, aokun and daniel. They are both being professional.

I'm being unprofessionally rude (with really good justification, I might add), but I'm no board member.

[hyperpape]

Until this very moment in time, I am unaware that any other AGA officer or board member has ever even acknowledged that anything needs to be overhauled.

One board member ran on a platform of improving communication with chapters and visited every state in her region. I think that counts.

[shapenaji]

Just to be clear, there are two board members in this thread, aokun and daniel. They are both being professional.

I'm being unprofessionally rude (with really good justification, I might add), but I'm no board member.

Now I'm very curious as to what it means to be "professionally rude"

[uglyboxer]

Now I'm very curious as to what it means to be "professionally rude"

It means you're a politician.