How Deep does The Rabbit Hole Go?

[Magicwand]

I always thought that games of pure skill are very ill suited for that, since it will so soon become so obvious to the weaker player, that he has no chance of winning (unless he is very stupid)

game of go is very misleading to weaker players. although it may appears that you have convincing win with your handycap it always winddown to one mistake that causes you to lose. so they try again and again. Kerby and i can play even game and have prettymuch even game till the end.
but i assure you that if we play for money i would give him 3 stones and win most games. if the betting value goes high i would maintain more than 50% winning with 4 stone handy. you have to try them to know what i mean.

[Solomon]

The only thing I'd like to say in this thread is that one shouldn't be let down by the progress they make after 1 year. I've had a couple of people assume I was one of those shodan-in-a-year players because of my progress in a relatively short period of time [/ego]. Far from the truth; I barely broke DDK in 1 year, and this was with tons of playing as I had a lot of free time as a HS student then.

And I think time is the biggest reason why people get stuck, not anything with age (though it is a factor). Kids have all the free time in the world. Adults have their family, day job, and other things that take their time away from this game. The next biggest reason is motivation. From what I've seen, kids have a fiery passion to improve and hate getting stuck at their level, even if it's dan level. I notice adults tend to not have this characteristic and are more satisfied with where they are, thinking (due to the first reason) they won't improve much from where they are. Even I find myself not reviewing as many games and solving problems/going over pro games as I did when I was in HS because of these two reasons. I am hoping this will change when I fly to Korea for 1 year as an exchange student to study Badu-I mean Statistics.

Just my two cents.

[Nikolas73]

I am 5k and I have a goal of KGS 1d by January 2011. I think it is attainable, but I will be happy for any improvement at all (I was 6k when I started this goal, I wrote more about it here). This thread reminds me of an old discussion on Go4Go: http://www.go4go.net/v2/modules/newbb/v ... 32&forum=6

Everyone improves at different speeds, just as some school students may understand topics faster than their peers or a pianist may reach a higher level of playing ability than another pianist. Everyone is different. As has been said here, any improvement is good; and to answer your question I think that "The Rabbit Hole" never ends.

[ketchup]

I'm asking a question I believe everybody did ask himself: "which rank can I expect to reach?"

I expect to reach a rank where I feel satisfied with my play. Until that happens, this game will be hard to drop for me.

[Fedya]

I've been playing nine years (started in my late 20s), and am still stuck at the KGS 6-7k level....

You have implied before that you don't do tsumego. I suspect very few can reach 1d without it. Especially if you play mostly alone online and don't have hords of 5d+ friends that seem to flock around magicwand

I do problems; what doesn't seem to help is that the problems don't look like my games. Or, more accurately, my games don't remind me of my problems. (Sometimes L&D does, but that's about it.)

I don't have the money for lessons.

[Magicwand]

I do problems; what doesn't seem to help is that the problems don't look like my games. Or, more accurately, my games don't remind me of my problems. (Sometimes L&D does, but that's about it.)

I don't have the money for lessons.

dont pay for your lessons.
reason why your game done look like the problem is that you are not playing joseki.
many corner problems appears in actual game.
study life and death of corner and memorize them.

L&D is good for you because it will familiarize you with critical points.
in actual game you will learn to see good attack points and defending points.
you will also learn killing points of the shape so you do not waste your reading on something uesless.

trust me that anybody can reach 5D kgs level.

[quantumf]

I read a letter in a Japanese go magazine from a man who was a 1 kyu when he retired at age 50. Five years later he was a 5 dan, having advanced one dan per year. (And this was at a time when amateur Japanese 6 dans overlapped pro shodans in strength.) He probably started playing at a younger age than you, but that just shows what is possible.

The problem with tales like this is that they are the exception.

[Magicwand]

I read a letter in a Japanese go magazine from a man who was a 1 kyu when he retired at age 50. Five years later he was a 5 dan, having advanced one dan per year. (And this was at a time when amateur Japanese 6 dans overlapped pro shodans in strength.) He probably started playing at a younger age than you, but that just shows what is possible.

The problem with tales like this is that they are the exception.

not only that japanese 5 dan is = 2 kyu in Kgs. very possible for any age to reach that level.

[Tryphon]

I'm asking a question I believe everybody did ask himself: "which rank can I expect to reach?"
When I started go, I knew it was a tough game but I thought anyone could reach shodan if they really want to.
I don't believe this anymore.
I'm in my mid-thirties, started go 1.5 year ago and reached 6k KGS, a very humble level. I've got no doubt I can make some more progress (and will try to) but even within 4-5 years time, I'm clearly not confident to be able to reach shodan level.

Did someone here started at about my age and managed to reach 1d KGS? Do you know of some people who did?
What are your beliefs / experience regarding age and maximum level reached?

Funny. I started go seriously 2 or 3 years ago, I'm likely a little weaker than you, I'm 33, and my goal is to reach 1d.

And, despite slow progress, I have absolutely no doubt that I'll reach it someday. Unless I lose interest in go before, or some accidents

I'm not in a hurry, I have a job, a wife, and soon a child, so it can takes me years, but I don't care, I'm sure I'll be 1d some day.

Alors hauts les coeurs

[Marcus]

Interesting to read all the different backgrounds.

I will reach Shodan (there is no question). I also believe I can reach Pro strength.

I started a little younger ... around 25 (~4 years ago). I discovered KGS, and was shocked to learn that I wasn't as good as the 12 games I'd played against my friends made me believe I was (being the strongest beginner holds no glory once you discover how bad you REALLY are ). I figured I'd find out how far I could push myself.

Like Araban, people thought I would reach 1d very shortly (in about 9 months) because I just kept improving, month over month ... I only reached 9k by the end of 18 months, and then life took me away for an 18 month hiatus (kid, new job, new house, all within a few months of each other).

Coming back to the game, I just couldn't progress beyond 7k for what seemed like a long time, up until 8 months ago or so.

What changed 8 months ago? I started teaching beginners. Specifically, I started teaching beginners about fundamentals. In doing so, I keep re-grounding myself in those fundamentals. I keep discovering over and over again how everything I learn in Go relates to the fundamentals of Go strategy.

This worked for me, but everyone has to find their own trigger; something that ties everything in Go together for them in their mind. Magicwand drilled it into his brain using Pro Games and High-Dan battles in Go Clubs. Some people do thousands of problems ... that obviously doesn't work for Fedya (at the moment, anyways).

The best option is always to get a teacher, but not just any teacher. You need to connect with your teacher on the Go board; they have to play Go in a way that inspires you ... at least, that's what I believe.

Barring a dedicated teacher, study your own games with a group of players your own strength or (even better) stronger ... KGS is awesome for this.

Just my ramblings. I believe you can do it, and so should you! Reach 1d! Reach 5d! Believe it!

[thepineapple]

I'm currently 4k on kgs (borderline 5k, though). Been playing for a little over a year now (started when i was 18), and have around 200-250 games played on kgs, including free "screwing around" games. I have confidence that I can reach dan level if I put the effort into it; there's not really much else that would stop me, I think. The problem is the effort, though. I am usually pretty lax about doing tsumego and studying - I generally learn by playing. I'm hoping to take advantage of the summer break from school to start seriously studying, and get as close to dan level as possible (wouldn't it be nice to reach dan by the end of summer? probably a pipe dream, though). We'll see how this works out for me.

I believe that anyone can get to at least dan strength, no matter what your situation. It may require more or less effort for you than for others, but there's no glass ceiling, per se. Natural talent, I think, is only a discriminating factor near high dan / pro level.

[Alakazam]

A friend of mine once said, "You know, I believe everybody can reach 5 Dan." However, he was probably referring to the minimum potential of each person, starting at a young age, etc.

I do believe most people can at least get 1d. 1d is really not much, not to insult anybody.

I don't think there's a usual plateau at 1d, it's just that some people randomly have blocks at certain levels.

There's nothing special about 1d, just like there's nothing special about star points. People only play on Tengen all the time as a middle game 'best guess' reduction move sometimes because they are attracted to the dot! It's just a dot! It's probably not the perfect spot for the reduction.

Here's proof of how arbitrary these 'plateaus' are. Once you get to 1d, I'm telling you now, unless you're abnormally optimistic, you'll think you are still very weak. If and when you get to 5 Dan, be it American 5 Dan (weak), Chinese 5 Dan (a lot less weak), or what have you, still, you will think you suck at this game and have a great deal of learning ahead of you. I'll tell you this very bluntly:
I'm 5 Dan KGS (usually ><) and in Canada, and 7 Dan on Oro... I suck badly! Still so weak! Yesterday, I actually read the kibitz of a Kyu player who said "They're so strong, I wish I could be like them one day." I admit that I was happy to read it, because I thought just like that like 3 years back when I watched 2 Kyu games with great awe, and asked them how to get so strong after the game.

Hehe, all ranks in Go are just as special as 1d or 5d, or 7d. I was very happy when someone told me I had leveled up to 24 Kyu.

To answer the original question of the thread - I boldly believe I can reach 7D/KGS9D/Pro level.
Take into account that, having recently finishing high school, I've been focusing my life on only Go. I play and do some studying every day, and I'm working a new job in order to raise funds for Guo Juan's learn Go in China thing. I also spent 5 months at KBC in Korea studying Go, until last December. I intend to continue my training for a few years more, if that's what it takes, focusing only on Go.
I started when I was almost 17. Too old! But it seems I can't complain

[Nikolas73]

Here's proof of how arbitrary these 'plateaus' are. Once you get to 1d, I'm telling you now, unless you're abnormally optimistic, you'll think you are still very weak. If and when you get to 5 Dan, be it American 5 Dan (weak), Chinese 5 Dan (a lot less weak), or what have you, still, you will think you suck at this game and have a great deal of learning ahead of you. I'll tell you this very bluntly:
I'm 5 Dan KGS (usually ><) and in Canada, and 7 Dan on Oro... I suck badly! Still so weak! Yesterday, I actually read the kibitz of a Kyu player who said "They're so strong, I wish I could be like them one day." I admit that I was happy to read it, because I thought just like that like 3 years back when I watched 2 Kyu games with great awe, and asked them how to get so strong after the game.

I think about this very often. When I was 25k or so and played almost exclusively with some 20-something kyu friends, we were all shocked and amazed at the strength of our 17k "teacher". Of course at that time, 5k players were incomprehensibly strong, right up there with pros. Jump ahead a few years and I am 5k - yikes! I'm terrible at Go, haha. I have my goal of shodan, and sure, when I make it I will still consider myself weak. However, it's the improvement that counts, and I'm happy as long as I'm moving forward (or, at least, not falling back )

[CarlJung]

I do problems; what doesn't seem to help is that the problems don't look like my games. Or, more accurately, my games don't remind me of my problems. (Sometimes L&D does, but that's about it.)

Good to hear you're doing tsumego, now I can drop that pet peeve

I took a look at some of your games and while I'm only slightly stronger I think I can tell that you would probably benefit from reading and thinking about "Direction of play". It wasn't an eye opener for me like some books but it made me think in those terms and I think that has helped.

Also, don't play forcing moves out of habit. If you don't see a good outcome of a sequence, don't play it. You'll strengthen your opponent in the process, and that gives him strength to fight in other areas. After the game, ask yourself "what was it that got me into this mess?". Often the mistake is earlier than one thinks.

One important aspect of doing tsumego is that it practices reading. You can't let your opponent get away with certain things. If he can be killed he should be killed (unless it's a 3pt kill or so). If you can up your reading a little so you can punish your opponent's overplays and think a little about the direction I believe you can take some steps up the kyu-ladder

[daal]

I read a letter in a Japanese go magazine from a man who was a 1 kyu when he retired at age 50. Five years later he was a 5 dan, having advanced one dan per year. (And this was at a time when amateur Japanese 6 dans overlapped pro shodans in strength.) He probably started playing at a younger age than you, but that just shows what is possible.

The problem with tales like this is that they are the exception.

not only that japanese 5 dan is = 2 kyu in Kgs. very possible for any age to reach that level.

Reading: not just for go!