If you frequent the hallowed halls of L19, it's probably reasonable to assume you're interested in playing go to your best ability and in trying to become more skilful.
My biggest bugbear is what I think of as "negative go". It seems very frequent among kyu players, and it induces the least pleasant emotions and thinking patterns in me.
Here I am going to outline some of it signature features. Please feel free to provide your own examples and recommendations.
First, especially in the run-up to shodan, I am noticing most people focus on destroying and not on creation. Every extension has to be invaded immediately, every wall must be immediately denied its extension, every enclosure must be probed as soon as it is played, every big point must be taken before the opponent gets there even if it means leaving bases unmade and shapes ready to be squashed.
In fact, like many a bad thing, this kind of negative go is only a distortion and shadow of something good. Naturally, invasions and reductions and probes are all proper techniques and need to be studied. In a way, I am now beginning to feel even a little grateful to the players of this style, because they have been exposing the shortcomings of my go and pointing the way for me to get stronger. Yes, the leave themselves open for attack, but I was not as good at attacking as I believed.
On a higher level, destructive go mimics amashi strategy, and the prevalence of it may be partly as result of the definition of amashi given on gobase. But amashi is truly hard to do well, and the amateur imitation of it looks more like spite - "if I can't have it, you certainly ain't having it either, even it I do hurt myself!"
Then we come to people who have a hatred of walls. I seem to have an uncontrollable bias toward influence. Even if I open with 3-4 points and play as best I can in the classic style, by the end of one of my better conducted games I find myself with no corners, little side territory and a great big central empire a la Takemiya. I have no idea how this happens. Anyway, having this bias toward influence, I tend to make a lot of walls.
Yet people don't do the sensible thing and erase from afar. Oh no! They only go all out to capture your wall. As Bill Spight would probably teach, one way of dealing with that attitude is to go ahead and let them have the wall, in exchange for something better. Still, it's the mentality behind wall allergy that irritates me. It's like the neighbour who wants to smash your lovely rockery or pee in your goldfish pond even though there are much better things he could do in the area. You can read their minds saying "I'm going to have my enclosure, and take away your extension, and capture your wall as well, and after the game I'm going to come over and make gloves out of your cats!".
Then there is Go-llum. He tends to be among the easier of the negative-minded players to defeat. When you approach his area, even his least important stones, he will block and cling, and you can almost hear him whispering obsessively "My preciousssssss, she wantses my precioussss, oh, my preciouss!" The word "exchange" does not exist in his vocabulary. Go-llum tends to play the kosumi attachment when you approach his 4-4 stone, unaware that this is not so much a defensive technique for preserving the corner as an attacking manouevre. He will deploy the "footsweep", unaware of its aji, and will happily save kikashi stones rather than let them go.
Another type of negativity is practised by the anti-joseki specialist. You know the drill: you study a 5-3 joseki or 5-4 joseki, and want to practice it. Instead, your esteemed partner plays something like this:
What do you do? I am not completely sure! However, the following line is my best bet for now:
Black would like to play next at a or b.
It seems to me that you can't smash the anti-joseki, but it you play reasonably calm and conservative moves you end up developing faster and more solidly. However, if I am displaying my ignorance here, then I would like to be corrected, because I want to get stronger!
And here is the best answer that I could find for myself. Again, am I in error?
If you double hane like a Viking, then as far as I can discover, you will end up with imposing thickness in exchange for the corner.
But, then of course, your opponent will attempt to save 2...
Anyway, I am frustrated with negative go in its various forms, and largely because I am not very good at playing against it. It is, though, clearly one of the things one must tackle in order to become strong. Therefore, I would be grateful to read your opinions, advice and examples.
As a footnote, I used to play chess, in the dark and distant days of my misspent youth. Now, as many of you will know, chess players study openings intensively, and it is one of the most profitable ways to get stronger at the game. Naturally, some of us did not enjoy studying...and for that market, many unorthodox openings have been created, which are supposed to have "surprise" value and require less memorisation. But it always struck me as self-defeating in the end: if you don't want to study something, then how can you really and sincerely expect to get stronger in any genuine way? There are indeed some masters who have made a name for themselves by playing the wackier lines, such as Tony Miles and Michael Basman. But they were already strong to begin with! Back to go, you might like to play anti-joseki of various kinds, even the quite good ones (I do believe Go Game Guru carried an article about easy ways to handle the 5-4 joseki), but, ultimately, are you not simply avoiding the effort that is absolutely necessary to get stronger?
Negative Go
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Tami
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Negative Go
Last edited by Tami on Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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hyperpape
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Re: Negative Go
Strange: it's not really my experience that you see this (I'm 2k on KGS). It really feels like stuff I saw a few ranks lower, and now it's been drilled out of the people I play.
In fact, while I do still see crazy and ill-advised fights, sometimes even ones that I started, I don't feel like I see a lot of the jealous kicks, or attaching to a corner stone and so on.
Lastly, what does
accomplish in that anti-joseki diagram?
In fact, while I do still see crazy and ill-advised fights, sometimes even ones that I started, I don't feel like I see a lot of the jealous kicks, or attaching to a corner stone and so on.
Lastly, what does
accomplish in that anti-joseki diagram?-
Tami
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Re: Negative Go
hyperpape wrote:Lastly, what does accomplish in that anti-joseki diagram?
If you mean the 7 in the second diagram, it was an oversight. Sorry! I have tried to correct it, but I am not sure whether playing there is good either.
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xed_over
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Re: Negative Go
Tami wrote:If you frequent the hallowed halls of L19, it's probably reasonable to assume you're interested in playing go to your best ability and in trying to become more skilful.
At the risk of distracting from your intended train of thought, this first premise is irrelevant.
I, for one, would be perfectly content remaining at the level I've attained so far. Sure, I'd like to get better still, but at this point in my life, I don't have the time or energy required. But I am still interested in the game, and enjoy watching a good game, and enjoy helping others improve (when I can).
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tchan001
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Re: Negative Go
Tami wrote:Another type of negativity is practised by the anti-joseki specialist. You know the drill: you study a 5-3 joseki or 5-4 joseki, and want to practice it. Instead, your esteemed partner plays...
It seems to me that if you are just drilling joseki, you'd worry about opponents deviating from the norm. But if you are studying joseki and why each move is played as joseki, you'd welcome deviations as a time to use your brain to explore how to punish.
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lindentree
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Re: Negative Go
I see moves like that 3-5 response and the 4-4 kick all the time on Tygem, Wbaduk etc at the low dan levels, not sure why though. (Incidentally, I always continue to the 3-3 in that 3-5 pattern, no idea if that's a good way to handle it.)
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Tami
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Re: Negative Go
tchan001 wrote:Tami wrote:Another type of negativity is practised by the anti-joseki specialist. You know the drill: you study a 5-3 joseki or 5-4 joseki, and want to practice it. Instead, your esteemed partner plays...
It seems to me that if you are just drilling joseki, you'd worry about opponents deviating from the norm. But if you are studying joseki and why each move is played as joseki, you'd welcome deviations as a time to use your brain to explore how to punish.
Well, I do study offbeats when they come up, and feel I have learned quite a lot by it, but it's the attitude behind it that grates with me - 'I would rather play a second- or third-rate move than study joseki'. One gets more practice with weird stuff than with good lines, and that's kind of frustrating after a while.
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tchan001
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Re: Negative Go
Well people spend their time studying different aspects of go. Joseki may not be their top priority. So don't let their 'attitude' affect your own study and effectiveness.
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topazg
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Re: Negative Go
I would personally choose this, as I think Black is happy enough with his corner, and if White extends along the side, Black still seems happy enough
I feel that allowing White to bend is kind of soft somehow. If the lower left was a Black stone then your suggestion is a bit more interesting to me, as the bend will automatically start to create a useful sphere of influence at the bottom, but I think that's probably true of my sequence as well. 2p, enjoy the salt!
EDIT: Actually, in extension, can I just say how much I enjoyed your original post. You manage to make a really funny and relateable to anecdote out of your frustration, which is no easy feat. I sympathise, and I agree it can be very frustrating, but I also think coming up against it is important. It's all very well knowing a move is bad, but without knowing why or how (and that includes being able to properly take best advantage of it), you have a memory of what you were told as a truly understood piece of knowledge. Eventually, the refutations to all this wacky play will become easier and easier to see over the board, and you'll have these opponents to thank for it
I feel that allowing White to bend is kind of soft somehow. If the lower left was a Black stone then your suggestion is a bit more interesting to me, as the bend will automatically start to create a useful sphere of influence at the bottom, but I think that's probably true of my sequence as well. 2p, enjoy the salt!
EDIT: Actually, in extension, can I just say how much I enjoyed your original post. You manage to make a really funny and relateable to anecdote out of your frustration, which is no easy feat. I sympathise, and I agree it can be very frustrating, but I also think coming up against it is important. It's all very well knowing a move is bad, but without knowing why or how (and that includes being able to properly take best advantage of it), you have a memory of what you were told as a truly understood piece of knowledge. Eventually, the refutations to all this wacky play will become easier and easier to see over the board, and you'll have these opponents to thank for it
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topazg
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Re: Negative Go
Some further ideas:
I'm not sure a double hane on the outside is good particularly, although in this situation it has special application because of the top right position. White should just be able to connect here I think, and with the corner, and ability to hane out, this doesn't seem too horrible for White? EDITED with examples hidden just below:
This feels like a simple way to play, and I think I'd prefer this. The only way to avoid this result for White seems to be to take bad shape:
Because of "a" and "b", I think either
seem to work.
I'm not sure a double hane on the outside is good particularly, although in this situation it has special application because of the top right position. White should just be able to connect here I think, and with the corner, and ability to hane out, this doesn't seem too horrible for White? EDITED with examples hidden just below:
This feels like a simple way to play, and I think I'd prefer this. The only way to avoid this result for White seems to be to take bad shape:
Because of "a" and "b", I think either
seem to work.-
Uberdude
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Re: Negative Go
This block in the corner is an absolutely key point. It makes a base for both players. Weird moves are a good opportunity to test your grasp of fundamentals like this.
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Uberdude
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Re: Negative Go
Tami wrote:
If you double hane like a Viking, then as far as I can discover, you will end up with imposing thickness in exchange for the corner.
Well, if you hane on the outside when someone attaches to 4-4 it's hardly surprising that you end up with central influence! My instinct in such a position is hane in corner. As in previous post, corner is key place for base for both players. Maybe with your funny influential shimari above (which, incidentally might make some more traditional people think you are a weird/tricky/negative player yourself!) it makes some sense on this board.
I wouldn't call this negative Go from white. It is extremely generous to play all those awful ataris making you nice and thick! Also instead of 9 (which I'm assuming (too lazy to read) doesn't have much life and death affect on corner, if it does it's a great move) you could play atari at p2 (to make white's o2 capture gote) and then net the white stone at o6 for a simple result.
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: Negative Go
I'm no stranger to getting annoyed when my opponent plays in ways against me that I "know" are wrong. But as I got stronger and at the same time started to play on Asian servers, I started to see my annoyance at these people as more of a problem with myself than them.
I think the reason I got (and occasionally still get) annoyed at these moves is because I "know" they are wrong, but I was/am not strong enough (or perhaps confident enough) to be assured that I won't lose to them. My annoyance is a product of my own weakness. Yet for some reason, I direct my annoyance at them, as if it's their fault that I am weak at something and they ought not exploit it. I've noticed I don't get annoyed if a player significantly weaker than me tries something ridiculous, as it usually makes them even easier to defeat.
I actually wish I had someone at my local go club who would be just slightly stronger than me, but would play in a way that would violate all general principles and would tick a part of me off (and many such players do exist). I find I learn most from games where I am forced to confront styles of play that make me uncomfortable.
I think the reason I got (and occasionally still get) annoyed at these moves is because I "know" they are wrong, but I was/am not strong enough (or perhaps confident enough) to be assured that I won't lose to them. My annoyance is a product of my own weakness. Yet for some reason, I direct my annoyance at them, as if it's their fault that I am weak at something and they ought not exploit it. I've noticed I don't get annoyed if a player significantly weaker than me tries something ridiculous, as it usually makes them even easier to defeat.
I actually wish I had someone at my local go club who would be just slightly stronger than me, but would play in a way that would violate all general principles and would tick a part of me off (and many such players do exist). I find I learn most from games where I am forced to confront styles of play that make me uncomfortable.
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Bonobo
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Re: Negative Go
Reminds me of a time some 20+ years ago. I lived in Hamburg (Germany) at the time, and I used to play chess regularly over perhaps two years with a “friend”. At some point he began regularly complaining that I played so badly. This continued until he quit playing with me, and he even quit friendship.Dusk Eagle wrote:I'm no stranger to getting annoyed when my opponent plays in ways against me that I "know" are wrong. But as I got stronger and at the same time started to play on Asian servers, I started to see my annoyance at these people as more of a problem with myself than them.
[..]
… I used to win perhaps 8 of ten games … and yes, I used tricks like sacrifice (in German “poisoned figures”), and maybe some “unorthodox” moves since I was by no means a “good” player.
<shrug>
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OtakuViking
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Re: Negative Go
I think this might be the best punishment.
the other option, if white chooses correctly and plays like below, reverts to a joseki (avalanche or large Avalanche?!)
IF white chooses to extend in the other direction black will get a better result.
the other option, if white chooses correctly and plays like below, reverts to a joseki (avalanche or large Avalanche?!)
IF white chooses to extend in the other direction black will get a better result.