Crazy Stone Software

[judicata]

I'd estimate that CrazyStone level 10 on a 19x19 running on a dual core 1 Ghz processor (in my case a galaxy tab) is about KGS 3k

It is definitely weaker on my iPad 2, though I'm not sure how much. The strongest level I've played is 10 as white, no komi (1 stone handicap for the computer), and I didn't have any problems beating it.

[Mike Novack]

I'd estimate that CrazyStone level 10 on a 19x19 running on a dual core 1 Ghz processor (in my case a galaxy tab) is about KGS 3k

Interesting.

The implication of this is that the machines we could expect to be available to end users are "not enough machine" for Crazy Stone (below the amount of crunch power at which performance is dropping off rapidly).

OK, let me phrase my question in a different way. Has anybody experienced Crazy Stone playing at about 1 dan KGS? How much machine in terms of cores x GHz did that require. Think of that as the "unit" so a four core 3 GHZ machine would be 12 units of crunch as opposed to Mef's example of a 2 unit galaxy tab.

I don't think a the moment a developer of a program for commercial distribution could expect any end users to have more than a 12 unit machine (a workstation or high end desktop/laptop like an avid "gamer" might have). And most of us have much less machine than that.

[judicata]

OK, let me phrase my question in a different way. Has anybody experienced Crazy Stone playing at about 1 dan KGS? How much machine in terms of cores x GHz did that require.

Based on playing a handful of games with different handicaps, I think the Windows version on my machine runs about KGS 2d, give or take (it is hard for me to tell precisely). Running on a 2-core (4 thread) 2.5ghz processor (Intel i5 2520m).

[Mike Novack]

OK, that sounds more like it.

We seem to be having some contradictory reports. Or what is more likely, people overestimating the power of the processor in their small tablets. etc.

For reference, the machine Judicata has described would be a "typical" current machine with about half the crunch of a really powerful desktop (say with an i7-2600 in it). And about twice the power of any of mine which are from what was current five+ years ago.

[judicata]

For reference, the machine Judicata has described would be a "typical" current machine with about half the crunch of a really powerful desktop (say with an i7-2600 in it). And about twice the power of any of mine which are from what was current five+ years ago.

Specifically, a current model Lenovo Thinkpad X220 (a mobile laptop), which is the first Thinkpad I've truly loved (but for the aspect ratio) since Lenovo took over for IBM.

[Mef]

OK, that sounds more like it.

We seem to be having some contradictory reports. Or what is more likely, people overestimating the power of the processor in their small tablets. etc.

If I had to guess I'd say that the largest source of error comes from difficulty in accurately estimating strength of a go player (a task that is challenging even under controlled circumstances with lots of data) as opposed to misreading a spec sheet on a device (a task that should be fairly easy) (=

[Mike Novack]

If I had to guess I'd say that the largest source of error comes from difficulty in accurately estimating strength of a go player (a task that is challenging even under controlled circumstances with lots of data) as opposed to misreading a spec sheet on a device (a task that should be fairly easy) (=

That's not true when judging whether stronger or weaker than oneself. We should be reasonably acurate judging within a stone or so or our own playing strength. Judicata describes himself as a 2k so when he reports that the program is weaker than himself when running on the iPhone but a few stones stronger than himself on his fairly powerful desktop/laptop then I think I am justified saying "hardware".

[Rémi]

Hi,

I am glad people here are interested in my program.

You might like to know that a new free "entry edition" of Crazy Stone is now available on the app store.

This edition offers the possibility to play against crippled levels of Crazy Stone on the phone, which can give you an idea of what the user interface of the full version is like (but not the strength). The 9x9 option is also weak, but a bit less, so it might be interesting for a beginner.

This edition also offer the possibility, via in-app purchase, to play online against Crazy Stone running on a remote PC operated by Unbalance in Japan. You can subscribe for 1, 3 or 6 months. If the standalone version is not strong enough for you, this will be stronger (but more costly). I am sorry I don't know the details of the hardware they use, but even the slowest 1-core PC should be about 10 times more powerful than a phone.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/id493197735

Rémi

[MLC]

I'm curious what KGS kyu levels the iPad version corresponds to. I think a previous poster (2 kyu?) said he could beat it easily on level 10 (of possible 12). I know this is guesswork, but I'm curious ... what's your best guess of how iPad CrazyStone levels 1 to 12 would map onto KGS kyu ratings ?

[judicata]

I'm curious what KGS kyu levels the iPad version corresponds to. I think a previous poster (2 kyu?) said he could beat it easily on level 10 (of possible 12). I know this is guesswork, but I'm curious ... what's your best guess of how iPad CrazyStone levels 1 to 12 would map onto KGS kyu ratings ?

On the 19x19 board, I (2k kgs) can beat it easily on level 10 (and I only see 10 strength settings--not 12[EDIT: see below, I found the 11-12 setting]) me playing white with no komi, so a 1-stone handicap. But I haven't played higher handicaps with it yet, so I don't know.

As I was typing, it just occurred to me that I hadn't played it on the new iPad...I wonder if the increased processing power will make any difference. I'll check and report. So it may depend on which iPad you're using.

[Boidhre]

I'm curious what KGS kyu levels the iPad version corresponds to. I think a previous poster (2 kyu?) said he could beat it easily on level 10 (of possible 12). I know this is guesswork, but I'm curious ... what's your best guess of how iPad CrazyStone levels 1 to 12 would map onto KGS kyu ratings ?

On the 19x19 board, I (2k kgs) can beat it easily on level 10 (and I only see 10 strength settings--not 12), me playing white with no komi, so a 1-stone handicap. But I haven't played higher handicaps with it yet, so I don't know.

As I was typing, it just occurred to me that I hadn't played it on the new iPad...I wonder if the increased processing power will make any difference. I'll check and report. So it may depend on which iPad you're using.

I think in a manual game you can set it higher than 10. I don't own the app though, so I can't check.

[murksomat]

On the 19x19 board, I (2k kgs) can beat it easily on level 10 (and I only see 10 strength settings--not 12), me playing white with no komi, so a 1-stone handicap. But I haven't played higher handicaps with it yet, so I don't know.

As I was typing, it just occurred to me that I hadn't played it on the new iPad...I wonder if the increased processing power will make any difference. I'll check and report. So it may depend on which iPad you're using.

I have an Ipad2 and I'am using Crazy Stone HD olny on level 12 ond the 19x19 board. This version was new released in november 2011. I have a E.G.D. rating about 1850, which is between 3kyu and 2kyu. I was mostly playing not very seriously, and lost about 90% of the games. I have only a chance if I play as slow as the program and concentrate only to the game. I think the game is stronger than me. I need a big advance in fuseki and early middle game to compensate my bad moves in the rest of the game.

[judicata]

I think in a manual game you can set it higher than 10. I don't own the app though, so I can't check.

You are correct; I didn't see this option. I'll give level 12 a try.

[judicata]

As mentioned above, I found the 11 & 12 strength settings, thanks to Boidhre. I was in the "Medal Challenge" mode, and didn't realize I could back up one more menu and create a "normal" game, which has the 11-12 options.

I suspect the 11 & 12 strength settings are considerably stronger than Lvl 10, but I can't say for sure, because I haven't played Lvl 10 on the new iPad with more processing power than the iPad 2. But playing casually against Crazy Stone on the new iPad, I lost one game each on Levels 11 and 12. (I had made a comeback on Lvl 11, and missing an endgame point lost me the game, I think--CS won by 1.5). In any event, I think level 12 is at least KGS 3k, and perhaps even 1d-2k. After playing more games, I'll report back (unless I was playing worse than I thought). Playing these games is sort of bittersweet--I want to win, but I would also like to have a program on my iPad that is at least slightly stronger than I am. But then I want to be stronger than it is . Neverending cycle.

[Jrs22]

My understanding about the new IPad is that the additional processing power is devoted to the retina graphics so if I'm correct then the game power would be the same. I'll be curious to learn what your experience is.

If the discussion could return to the OPs question about human-like software - I'm going to be traveling for a while with my iPad but mostly w/o wifi access, so I won't be able to play online. Given that circumstance, which Go app would be most 'human-like' on my iPad - Champion Go (Crazy Stones), Igowin HD or Smartgo Kifu?