I need your help

bofinken · Post by **bofinken** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:20 am

I am very bad at reviewing games, but I did at least try in the game hereunder. I was a game between myself and a player at Boardz (a game on iphone/ipad). I promised him a review, so I gave it a try. Please feel free to correct my comments and/or add another ones.

(My strength is unknown but it might be 1-3 kyu, while my opponent are a few stones weaker. )

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:50 am

bofinken,

Some thoughts,

judicata · Post by **judicata** » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:32 pm

Off topic (sorry), but feel free to request a boardz game. My username is the same (judicata). I really wish it would export SGFs

.

bofinken · Post by **bofinken** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:20 am

Thanks Ed Lee,
comments on your comments.
B9: I agree about the weakness, but is it not a valid joseki and to leave such weakness is ok if you are aware of it?
b15: curious question, what would dan player do then? can one punish this orthodox joseki or is it ok in this position?
w48: Do you think that is is hamete? You didn't comments so either you agreed with my comment or you didn't have find it bad.

mitsun · Post by **mitsun** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:38 pm

Sorry to disagree with Ed Lee, but ...

The joseki :b9:

is fine, as long as B is aware of the weakness around C8, and feels he can handle it. The game combination of B2 and C9 makes a lot more territory than B5 alone, and looks like a reasonable continuation to me. Of course taking sente with B5 to make a big move somewhere else is also good. I think both ways are playable.

I also like :b33:

, the one-space jump which Ed considers too slow. This move does not make a full base, but it comes pretty close, and to me seems at least as good as immediately jumping into the center, which looks like playing on dame.

A few other comments:

The exchange 37-38-39-40 is terrible for B, greatly weakening the B group below. I agree with Ed that the W invasion at move 42 is an overplay. If B prevents this stone from connecting, the continuation is likely to make the preceding B moves good. Since W is already poking out at N7, has a nice endgame move at S8 or S9, and can look forward to chasing the lower B stones for quite some time to come, B is not likely to make much territory around R12 anyway.

The evaluation of :w48:

depends on your territory estimate. If W reduces more safely instead of invading (say with the shoulder hit at D10 or E10), does B get too much territory? This would be a perfect time to estimate the score, before deciding on a strategy. Also, you need to do some reading, to make sure B cannot capture this stone outright with D11.

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:55 am

For white's followup to move 30, the usual move is at R11 instead of R12, no?

For the joseki in the lower left, I seem to recall hearing from Guo Juan that the result when black plays at B5 has been very slightly disfavored. While solid and strong, B3 and B5 end up a little low, and though both sides end up investing 4 stones each, white's stones are slightly more efficient. (although perhaps a database search might challenge this, and perhaps it is still the best given that D6 and B3 have already been played). The difference probably doesn't matter much at our level, but I thought this to be an interesting tidbit.

cyclops · Post by **cyclops** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:50 pm

lightvector wrote:For white's followup to move 30, the usual move is at R11 instead of R12, no?

No, according to Takemiya ( Enclosure Josekis, last pattern ) in this joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Wa..Bd next $$ --------------+ $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . O a O . . . | $$ . . 0 , O . . | $$ . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . X . . | $$ . . . X . 2 . | $$ . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . 8 4 7 . . | $$ . . . 5 6 3 . | $$ . . d . X 9 . | $$ . . . . b c . | $$ . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . , O . . | $$ . . O . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ --------------+[/go]

W also has the option to play by W3 at 6 for ko. W1 at 7 is the wrong invasion because B2 at 5 gives W a tough time. ~~But in the game R6 was played instead of R7.~~
edit: I striked out the last sentence.

Unicorn · Post by **Unicorn** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:31 pm

was too close to your thickness. :w30:

doesn't look good to me either. It was very small.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 3:28 pm

cyclops wrote:
No, according to Takemiya ( Enclosure Josekis, last pattern ) in this joseki:
$$Wc Wa..Bd next
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . O a O . . . |
$$ . . 0 , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . 2 . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . 8 4 7 . . |
$$ . . . 5 6 3 . |
$$ . . d . X 9 . |
$$ . . . . b c . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , O . . |
$$ . . O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Wa..Bd next $$ --------------+ $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . O a O . . . | $$ . . 0 , O . . | $$ . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . X . . | $$ . . . X . 2 . | $$ . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . 8 4 7 . . | $$ . . . 5 6 3 . | $$ . . d . X 9 . | $$ . . . . b c . | $$ . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . , O . . | $$ . . O . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ --------------+[/go]

Weird, Takemiya makes an order mistake there: the peep at :b10:

is too late, as explained by Takagi Shoichi in Beyond Forcing Moves, and regurgitated by me in viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5150.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:57 pm

mitsun,

cyclops · Post by **cyclops** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:25 pm

Uberdude wrote:
Weird, Takemiya makes an order mistake there:

I will burn his book :grumpy:

Nagilum · Post by **Nagilum** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:33 am

cyclops wrote:
lightvector wrote:For white's followup to move 30, the usual move is at R11 instead of R12, no?

No, according to Takemiya ( Enclosure Josekis, last pattern ) in this joseki:
$$Wc Wa..Bd next
$$ --------------+
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . O a O . . . |
$$ . . 0 , O . . |
$$ . . . X O . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . X . 2 . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . 8 4 7 . . |
$$ . . . 5 6 3 . |
$$ . . d . X 9 . |
$$ . . . . b c . |
$$ . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . , O . . |
$$ . . O . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Wa..Bd next $$ --------------+ $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . O a O . . . | $$ . . 0 , O . . | $$ . . . X O . . | $$ . . . . X . . | $$ . . . X . 2 . | $$ . . . . 1 . . | $$ . . 8 4 7 . . | $$ . . . 5 6 3 . | $$ . . d . X 9 . | $$ . . . . b c . | $$ . . . . O . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . , O . . | $$ . . O . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ --------------+[/go]

W also has the option to play by W3 at 6 for ko. W1 at 7 is the wrong invasion because B2 at 5 gives W a tough time. ~~But in the game R6 was played instead of R7.~~
edit: I striked out the last sentence.

This is not the correct variation from "Enclosure Josekis".
Before we burn this book

we should take a look on the right variation

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc ... White plays 6 to defend against the cut after Black 'a' $$ --------------+ $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . X . . . . | $$ . . . , X . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . 8 9 . | $$ . . 0 . O 5 . | $$ . . . 1 2 X . | $$ . . 4 O 3 . . | $$ . . . a X . . | $$ . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . O . . | $$ . . . O X . . | $$ . . 6 , X . . | $$ . X 7 X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ --------------+[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:39 pm

That right variation still has the peep too late, it should be before q9 according to Takagi. However, GoGoD shows pros make the peep late more often than not, and don't do Takagi's punishment which is rather puzzling. His argument seems sound to me...

lightvector · Post by **lightvector** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 9:51 pm

cyclops wrote:
lightvector wrote:For white's followup to move 30, the usual move is at R11 instead of R12, no?

No, according to Takemiya ( Enclosure Josekis, last pattern ) in this joseki...

Haha, I meant the exact opposite of what I wrote. I was confused because R11 is the point EdLee marked in his initial review on move 30. But he probably meant to mark R12 too.

tchan001 · Post by **tchan001** » Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:37 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc More from a Chinese book $$ --------------+ $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . X . . . . | $$ . . . , X . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . X . . | $$ 8 . 6 . 3 4 . | $$ . . 5 . O 2 . | $$ . . 7 X O X . | $$ . . 1 O X . . | $$ . . . . X . . | $$ . . . O . O . | $$ . . . . O . . | $$ . . . O X . . | $$ . . O , X . . | $$ . X X X . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ --------------+[/go]

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