Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

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Gresil
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Gresil »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 39A - W: 18, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O B . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So you've got an eye?
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Chew Terr
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Chew Terr »

Trigger for if Gresil's suggestion is accepted by both:
I capture at B10
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by topazg »

Approved

As before ..
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 39A - W: 18, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Actually, maybe Gresil's marked stone is valid in that it makes a black play at 'a' sente. So 'a' seems to me to be a double-sente point for both sides.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Violence »

What... are you doing, topazg?
It's clearly two points better to extend. It might even be 4 points... argh.
It's really basic to extend when atari'd in this manner, I can't believe Topazg won't spend 2 points to fix it.

No. I can't let that pass. This is way bigger than 4 points, on endgame alone. Not to mention the aji in the area.

I have no idea what topazg is thinking. This is huge!

The endgame at 5 is ginormous! Even if black exchanges 6 for 7 first, 5 still exists. However, if white has a ponnuki there instead, black can play 6 for 7 in sente, and the endgame disappears. I think it's definitely at least 4 points.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 39A - W: 18, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 7 X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Therefore...


Can't let you do that... Star Fox!

Image


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 39A - W: 18, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B X O C . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Last edited by Violence on Mon May 24, 2010 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Dusk Eagle »

Violence:
You messed up the diagram. I believe this is what you were going for:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 39A - W: 18, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | 7 X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 5 . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:b5: is interesting - I didn't see it before. If I were in topazg's shoes and I didn't see :b5: , I might have approved of Gresil's move even though I would personally have played the descent.

Not for players:
This also makes it even more clear to me why Violence was ok with this cut before. It's better than it first appeared to me.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Chew Terr »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 40A - W: 22, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think W should now have 21 or 22 prisoners. I don't think I can check the original thread because it's in GD and GD has a problem with posts that have diagrams. Joaz, could you please update the prisoners in your post?

If we don't play here, black will, and then it's painful for us.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Maybe Violence wants something like this
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B X O 3 5 . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Regardless, it seems like we don't have a lot of options in how to resist. I guess the point is, black sacrificing the extra stone gives them one more liberty, which adds that much more aji.


Edit: updated prisoners
Last edited by Chew Terr on Mon May 24, 2010 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Move #40B

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

My teammate makes another pro quality move, while the black team can't agree on exactly which aji keshi move they are going to play...and they give us several stones for the privilege of settling their dispute. I strongly approve. :lol:
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by topazg »

Haha, this game sucks!! :)

Sheesh, I feel like a bully. I know we should probably have extended there, but I don't really want to keep correcting every move either. I was nearly tempted to swap the original cut for simply a hane, but then it would send the message that I thought the direction of play was the correct one. I think I'm going to settle for simply correcting anything to where I think it should go, but wow, so many points are going to change hands with corrections... This is by far the hardest format to play ;)
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by daniel_the_smith »

Violence should also consider that he might have to pay another 4 points to get his endgame followup, since his teammates don't seem to know about it (I wouldn't have seen it, though I might have corrected the atari anyway). Is this really 8 points better than the atari? I kinda doubt it, but maybe.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Joaz Banbeck »

Chew Terr wrote: Joaz, could you please update the prisoners in your post?


To the best of my recollection, the transfer of prisoner counts from GD was correct. I went though this thread and made an index of where more prisoners were awarded.

B, W, Post #
------------
07 11 01
09 11 16
11 11 41
12 11 42
12 13 56
12 15 73
14 15 80
15 15 81
15 17 83
15 18 91
17 18 95
17 22 110

At this point, black has 17 prisoners in their lid, and white has 22 in theirs. Does this count look correct?
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by unkx80 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . b X O 1 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't count, but I feel that Violence is overstating the value of the endgame sequence that the little brother probably can't find anyway. I would just play :b1:, because I think white will connect at :w2: anyway. Next, a is pretty large and reactivates the aji at b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Should white tenuki after :bc:, then black has two choices. The first is something like this, or probably reverting to Violence's sequence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 X O X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 1 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . B . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However, black can also choose to play like this, which threaten to gorge out white'e eye space just as well. I may prefer this.
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shapenaji
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by shapenaji »

Image
I take issue with Joaz's comment that this move is also aji keshii, it's the right move to make once you've decided to give up that stone, and it leaves some good endgame play for them in future. I expected that Violence would change this one..
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Magicwand »

to: unkx80 and observers.
i agree with you 100% on over estimating the endgame value.
i thought i was the only one who felt that way. now i know i am not the only one.

also they under estimate the value of 2 point penalty.
i am glad i am not one of the player for this game.
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Re: Big Brother Malkovich # 1 (continued)

Post by Gresil »

I guess black's correctional sagari adds aji. As outlined somewhere earlier, this is my last local wrong move before I shift to the top side.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 40A - W: 22, B: 17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . O X . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . X O X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O B . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
So you've got an eye?
That don't impress me much
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