Using joseki dictionary in games

[walpurgis]

So far I have mostly ignored learning joseki sequences and only know a few very basic ones. I think I saw it mentioned somewhere that using a joseki dictionary while playing (online, KGS) might be useful. Anyone got experience in memorizing openings this way? Or does this only teach me to rely on something other than my memory?

I've advanced to 5k KGS like this so I think getting better acquinted with joseki might give me a little boost...

[oren]

Review joseki after the game. I think it's just a distraction during one.

[Loons]

I've been told that this is a good idea before, but ultimately I'm also in favour of reviewing after the game.

[shapenaji]

Like others have said, review afterward,

There are many times when things that are NOT joseki, are nonetheless the best sequence for the given board position (or at the very least, a good sequence),

Your judgement is far more important than getting a book sequence in place.

[RobertJasiek]

If you learn 1 joseki after a game, then you learn 1 joseki. If you study joseki dictionaries, then you learn as many josekis as you can remember. If you read books that explain meanings of joseki moves, sequences and decisions, then you learn something general and applicable to all your games.

At your level and if you do not know joseki well yet, studying joseki very seriously is a possible way to improve 4 ranks in 4 months. The hard way is to read a detailed dictionary thrice. The easy way is to read my complete joseki book series (Volume 3, which will contain just all the necessary josekis and some extras, appears in about 2 months, I hope).

[RobertJasiek]

There are many times when things that are NOT joseki, are nonetheless the best sequence for the given board position (or at the very least, a good sequence),

Your judgement is far more important than getting a book sequence in place.

Right, but if one does not know concepts and methods for judgement and a reasonable selection of representative book sequences, then one cannot do such a judgement and decision making well.

[RBerenguel]

If your joseki book was in PDF form I may consider it (or in SmartGo books), but as a tree-based book I'm not so interested (lately I read far more in my iPad than anything if possible). I need to understand joseki motivations, much more than learning any joseki

[RobertJasiek]

If your joseki book was in PDF form I may consider it

My current plan is to publish all my future books also as PDFs. As explained earlier, PDFs of Joseki 1 and 2 need to wait though (Joseki 2 probably longer than 1).

I need to understand joseki motivations, much more than learning any joseki

And then you don't buy the most fitting books because the media format is not your first choice? Do you want to become stronger or enjoy file consumption?:)

[RBerenguel]

Price+shipping don't cut it for now (also this month I already made an order of go books, so it will be one more month without buying books after this )

[judicata]

People learn in different ways, so YMMV, but I think looking at joseki resources during a game makes you weak; similar to how weak/under-developed muscles will never get stronger if you don't use them.

[shapenaji]

There are many times when things that are NOT joseki, are nonetheless the best sequence for the given board position (or at the very least, a good sequence),

Your judgement is far more important than getting a book sequence in place.

Right, but if one does not know concepts and methods for judgement and a reasonable selection of representative book sequences, then one cannot do such a judgement and decision making well.

In my experience, you'll get that information from games, it's not necessary to pick up a joseki book. And you should play more games anyhow. Experimentation is better than imitation.

I think I've picked up a joseki book all of twice, and usually put it down a day later. They're really kind've a waste of time, especially since you can learn most of the basic ones from opponents.

[RobertJasiek]

In my experience, you'll get that information from games,

How fast can you improve from that? How long did you need to learn the circa 500 most frequent josekis from your opponents? They also teach you fake josekis like

$$W fake joseki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 1 . . . . 7 .
$$ | . 2 X O O . 5 . .
$$ | . 4 O X X 6 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W fake joseki
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . 3 1 . . . . 7 .
$$ | . 2 X O O . 5 . .
$$ | . 4 O X X 6 . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

After having seen this from some opponent, how long did you need to understand that Black is better and which rank did you have then? What enabled you to understand this without referring to books?

$$W fake joseki follow-up
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X 2 . .
$$ | . . X , 1 . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W fake joseki follow-up
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . X 2 . .
$$ | . . X , 1 . . . .
$$ | . . X O . . . . .
$$ | . . O O . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . . . . .[/go]

Same for the question why White is better.

it's not necessary to pick up a joseki book. [...] I think I've picked up a joseki book all of twice [...] They're really kind've a waste of time, especially since you can learn most of the basic ones from opponents.

This is such a general statement that it requires different considerations:

1) Joseki dictionaries (or databases): At your or my current rank, this is more or less correct because we have already learned enough go theory knowledge to judge by ourselves. In case of tactically very complex josekis, I still occasionally look up some dictionary because I am not strong enough to reinvent quickly all surprising moves that all professionals together needed centuries to discover. Don't you need that, too? More importantly though, you are also implying that SDKs would not need dictionaries. They do not know have enough go theory knowledge. So why do you claim that they could reinvent and understand quickly all josekis?

2) Go theory books related to josekis: I am not sure whether you mean also them. So before wasting time arguing why they are necessary, please confirm whether indeed you think that they were not!

Experimentation is better than imitation.

Understanding is much better than both experimentation and imitation. To get good understanding quickly, a player needs go theory books or stronger players' regular advice or both. The fraction of players succeeding with only experimentation is tiny.

[RobertJasiek]

this month I already made an order of go books

Now this is a convincing reason:)

[KGO]

I've always used a joseki dictionary while playing. Nowadays, I rarely need it anymore. I think it has helped me to learn faster by allowing me to play above my level and to make sure I don't get stuck playing the same basic default josekis over and over again. Also, it combines playing and studying. I doubt I would otherwise study joseki when I'm not playing a game.

It's cheating, but I think it helps me to learn and all other considerations are secondary.

Obviously, you can't just follow the joseki dictionary unquestioningly.

[quantumf]

I've always used a joseki dictionary while playing.
...
It's cheating...

I don't think its cheating in the normal sense of the word. Perhaps you are cheating yourself because you would not be able to play to your KGS level in real life. Does that matter? I don't think its cheating your opponent because you are at your current KGS level using your joseki dictionary crutch, which in my opinion is a pretty minor crutch. Perhaps it would be regarded as unsporting or inappropriate?

Actually, use of joseki dictionaries don't really bother me at all. The thing I'm MUCH more worried about is when 4d+ bots become readily available.