can we get rid of the insane admins please?

[mw42]

If you are having problems with the admins just leave the EGR, close the room window and forget about it. Interesting conversations (almost) never happen there, and you are just asking from trouble chatting in there if you have a tendency to step on toes like I do. Admins (almost) never moderate other rooms on KGS except the game rooms, and, in game rooms, at least you know what the topic should always be: the game being played.

[Joaz Banbeck]

I just don't understand why the moderating structure of KGS is set up like this at all...
...Every day there's some guest or another with a name like "isukdix" spamming a game for twenty minutes before he gets banned, only to be replaced two minutes later by "isukdixx".

I think that your last sentence answers your first.

If a system is intended to achieve X, and X has not been achieved, that is not automatically a reason to redouble our efforts towards propping up the existing system. It may mean that the system is ineffective, or misguided, or both. Like fighting with your brother over who gets how much cake while the cake is starting to burn: the intention is to make sure everyone gets a fair share of cake, but it turns out the real threat to your slice of cake lies elsewhere. The mods are going around banning regulars on their main accounts for broken-window type offenses. At the same time, people log in as guests to flout the rules with impunity.

True, the KGS mod system may be 'ineffective, or misguided, or both'. Ours might be too.

Admins have several problems that make our job harder.

1) Sometimes we don't know who we are dealing with. Am I dealing with a sane contributor like Bill Spight or a certifiable nutcase like de Groot? Sometimes we know a bit of a history, but often we don't. This makes a proportional reply very difficult.
At KGS, this problem is compounded by the fact that they allow multiple identities. BigDoug cannot be expected to know Jstcarry out of the thousands of names. For all he knows, you may be isuxdixx.

2) We often do not know the intentions of the member. Some ask questions out of sincere curiousity, some ask questions just to challenge the admin and support the banned. ( @RBerenguel: that's probably what happened to you. )
Some are simply trolling - and we can't always be sure of their real intentions either.


You can make the job of your local admin much easier by contacting him privately.
It eliminates the latter problem, and gives him time to research the former.

[hyperpape]

1) Sometimes we don't know who we are dealing with. Am I dealing with a sane contributor like Bill Spight or a certifiable nutcase like de Groot? Sometimes we know a bit of a history, but often we don't. This makes a proportional reply very difficult.
At KGS, this problem is compounded by the fact that they allow multiple identities. BigDoug cannot be expected to know Jstcarry out of the thousands of names. For all he knows, you may be isuxdixx.

KGS correlates logins for different addresses. I don't know exactly how extensive it is (i.e. is every account that I've ever logged in linked?), but if you ever find yourself banned, don't try and log in with a second account. It won't work.

[Joaz Banbeck]

True, but on the spur of the moment, BigDoug can't check those logs. So he has to make snap judgements. If you talk to him privately, such hurried judgement won't happen.

[Redundant]

For me the most damning thing about BigDoug's adminship is that KGS became a noticeably better place once I censored him.

[badukJr]

I think KGS needs to rotate admins in and out more... otherwise it becomes a horrible clicque. Its pretty common to see two admins in kibitz giving ridculous comments that would get bold text responses if it were a mere peon acting that way.

The KGS admin team is the best advertisement for kaya gs right now.

[Kirby]

1) Sometimes we don't know who we are dealing with. Am I dealing with a sane contributor like Bill Spight or a certifiable nutcase like de Groot? Sometimes we know a bit of a history, but often we don't. This makes a proportional reply very difficult.
At KGS, this problem is compounded by the fact that they allow multiple identities. BigDoug cannot be expected to know Jstcarry out of the thousands of names. For all he knows, you may be isuxdixx.

KGS correlates logins for different addresses. I don't know exactly how extensive it is (i.e. is every account that I've ever logged in linked?), but if you ever find yourself banned, don't try and log in with a second account. It won't work.

Just use http tunneling. It works fine, then. SSH tunneling would probably work, too.

[hammertime]

It's so easy to post selected things to try and prove your side of the argument. No one on here can make an informed judgement on the situation unless you know all the details. Having said that, continually trying to provoke admins is probably not the best idea...nor is the ranting I seem to see from certain people in the EGR everytime they manage to log on. If you have an issue you go to the source, crying in public won't get you any sympathy.

[topazg]

Actually, I think there's a point to be made for more admins, on a rotating basis.

Being an admin is a horrible thankless job at all times. Having twice as many admins but only being on duty every other month may give enough of a break that it's easier to do the job without feeling so jaded and irritable about it, which I suspect is half the problem. The only new problem is finding those new admins

[hammertime]

More admins do not change how users behave. If someone insists on being childish as clearly demonstrated on the forums already then the new admins will also continue to boot.

Note the email says "Your negative behaviour on KGS has taken place for several years."

Several years, if someone doesnt learn what will get them banned after that much time then really no amount of time is going to change it.

[badukJr]

Like you said in your previous post, we can't make an informed judgement about those 7 years unless Doug provides detailed information. Maybe Doug is the irrational one for 7 years, but we can't know.

[topazg]

More admins do not change how users behave. If someone insists on being childish as clearly demonstrated on the forums already then the new admins will also continue to boot.

Note the email says "Your negative behaviour on KGS has taken place for several years."

Several years, if someone doesnt learn what will get them banned after that much time then really no amount of time is going to change it.

Yes, but that's not just the case for xDragon. There are quite a few people (jts has said so, I'm one of them too) who simply don't chat in the EGR because of the difficulty with the admins that has happened in the past. I have little doubt here that xDragon had what was coming, but that doesn't in itself mean there isn't an issue on the other side as well.

Part of the difficulty is there's no place really set up for chatting about non-Go related material that's easy to find. It would be useful if the ECR loaded by default when someone installs KGS as well, as it makes it much easier to say "this room is for Go related chat, that room is for general chat". As it is, a lot of people aren't even aware the ECR exists.

[hammertime]

Right, we can't make judgement on the situation as a whole but it seems even here he is determined to show his true colours with "you could have just said nothing at all instead of being an ass" and "* - the censored comment was made after this kick and was inappropriate so i wont fight that, but there you go."

No system is perfect either, especially one that is run by people who don't get paid and have to deal with people complaining all day. I'm sure there are admins who do take breaks from KGS just to reset themselves from all the children with a fight the power attitude. If everyone just tried to not provoke others, which applies to both sides, then things would be a lot smoother. The majority of KGS users have no issues with admins so as a whole I would say they aren't doing too bad. No one is going to get it right 100% of the time, when an admin gets it wrong and everyone is quick to attack the admin and when a user gets it wrong they try to act like a matyr and pass the buck to the admins. If a user has a legitimate complaint then they should take it up with an admin directly, screaming in the EGR for hours on end will not solve their issue.

[hyperpape]

Part of the difficulty is there's no place really set up for chatting about non-Go related material that's easy to find. It would be useful if the ECR loaded by default when someone installs KGS as well, as it makes it much easier to say "this room is for Go related chat, that room is for general chat". As it is, a lot of people aren't even aware the ECR exists.

This is the simplest, smartest comment in this whole thread. It's a much less confrontational version of what I proposed. Maybe also add the neutral "if you have a problem with another user or KGS policies, please privately contract an administrator."

The current setup just features a link to the uninviting "main rooms policy". Worse, in the web client, I can't click that link, nor can I copy it with ctrl-c (Chrome, Windows XP). But users don't read long things, and they often don't follow relevant links.

[uPWarrior]

Or just let people chat in the EGR. There is no Go discussion there anyway..

(an idea isn't bad just because it has been proposed over and over. It's probably the opposite.)