#158 - topazg vs speedchase

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illluck
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by illluck »

White's play here really feels a bit unnatural - 30 is particularly jarring. Feels like tenuki to left side is OK. Otherwise it seems like black can extend and white may have trouble breaking out near F5 due to the group at H3 being weak (may be separated).
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by speedchase »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 a and b are miai
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There are of course other variations, but from what I read out, I think I a reduction, and I also get deeper into his moyo, or strength facing my Shimari.
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topazg
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, this is getting silly. I'll play for points here, and if he contacts the other side, he has no ladder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 5 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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speedchase
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by speedchase »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 3 . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . . X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Getting out :) this also allows the possibility of the horses head into his moyo which is huge.
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by illluck »

Am I the only one who thinks black's play (take territory, then immediately play to take the outside as well) is one often used by white in high handi games? :p
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topazg
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . 3 . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . 4 X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The shape point is big enough for me now, I think. If he doesn't respond, I can then chase and split his two central groups, as he'll have no eye for this one. If he does respond, he will prepare my development on the left. It's rarely good I think to let your opponent's not yet settled group hassle one of your own in sente, so I'm hoping I can fix this in sente whilst removing some of his sente moves against my own group.
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by Celebrir »

illluck wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks black's play (take territory, then immediately play to take the outside as well) is one often used by white in high handi games? :p

If black really shoudl win, this is the comment of the game for me :tmbup: But I agree, that it looks like that
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by speedchase »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . . 5 . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Its move 35 and I have already done both of my major"DON"T DO IT's" getting sealed in and creating two weak groups ><
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topazg
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 7 . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . 6 5 . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ok, let's follow this one through and decide if I split groups, or switch to the left...
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by speedchase »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . O X . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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topazg
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm31 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . O X . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It's the shape point, and if pushing and cutting is good for me, which it seems like it is here, then it's sente too - feels like a no-brainer move
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by speedchase »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . O X . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . C 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X C . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . O X . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

gets ahead and allows for a tigers mouth at the marked points
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topazg
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . O X . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There's some very interesting L+D aji in the corner, and hopefully now I'm in a more interesting position on the left at least.

This game is looking rather less pessimistic than it was, although there's still a long way to go.
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by speedchase »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . O X . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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topazg
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Re: #158 - topazg vs speedchase

Post by topazg »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 W:0 B:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . 4 . . 3 , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O X . X . O . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . X . . O X . . . . O . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . . , . . O X X X X . . . . O X . X |
$$ | . . . X . O . O O O . . . O . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll leave the lower left fun until the fuseki is over ... a few interesting dynamics going on here. I need to be a bit careful about Black's top side, but an invasion would have been outright greedy. Stopping the two right Black stones connecting up to the top right is pretty urgent after he reinforces here though, so I'll probably jump towards the middle with my group over there. I was hoping to start splitting his two central groups, but as one of them is pretty unkillable now it seems like a better strategy may be to look at eating the central top side whilst forcing them to connect to each other instead. That's the theory, anyway.
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