What's wrong with go book publishers?

[Boidhre]

Eidogo uses Kogo's. There's also josekipedia, which I go to once in awhile.

Thanks for the correction.

[tundra]

Have you considered contacting Janice Kim, at www.samarkand.net? Her "Learn To Play Go" series (currently five volumes) might actually be more suitable for children new to the game.

The main problem I see, though, is that Amazon currently carries her books. I wonder if it is possible to offer much of a savings compared to their price.

[PeterB]

Tundra, thank you. That's exactly what I'm looking for. I'll contact Samarkand.

Robert, thank you for the offer. Unfortunately I'm only looking for books for absolute beginners at the moment. I'll make a note of your site for future reference.

Daal, there are different approaches, but normally you would buy a product in bulk and ship it to your storage facility. After that you own it and it's your responsibility to move it. That's what I intended to do in this case. Most people would be happy to move stock off their own books and get the money in the bank. I don't have a physical store, but I have a large list of existing customers. The internet is where most of the excitement is, but direct mail is still going strong for people who know what they're doing.

Hyperpape et al, I should clear something up about Slate & Shell. The discount thing was just a made up excuse they gave. I never asked for a discount from any of the publishers because I never got as far as discussing price with any of them. I contacted them, let them know my plans, asked for suggestions for beginner books and a price for a case of each. After Slate & Shell said this I told them to name their price, they still refused point blank. It goes without saying that they should price the books to make a profit.

They didn't ask any of the questions that you'd normally expect from someone who knows what they're doing and proceeded to lecture me on how I could improve my own business by cutting off all my distributors for my own products. That's a mentality that loses money and leaves stock to depreciate in storage for years. No wonder they're up against the wall.

I deal in other products that are just as niche as go and don't have a problem moving them. And I do believe that someone who takes three months to respond to a simple inquiry (with multiple followups) is unprofessional, incompetent or both. Over the years I've found that trying to work with people like this is always a costly mistake, so I don't care if they read my comments. I'm happy that they let me know how useless they are right at the outset. I have no plans to ever contact them again and I believe that people who operate like this and then complain that business is bad deserve to be outed. This is partly what's wrong with our economy at the moment.

[hyperpape]

If that's how it went, it does defeat my ability to come up with an explanation and I don't know what they could have been thinking.

[tchan001]

I just thought of another publisher which might be big enough to do deals with your company: Tuttle Publishing

They have a couple of books by Peter Shotwell which could perhaps be a nice progression for beginners to mid-kyu+.
Beginning Go
Go! More Than a Game
Go Basics
Winning Go: Successful Moves from the Opening to the Endgame

Peter Shotwell is also a member of L19 so maybe he can give you some advice as well.

[gurujeet]

PeterB,

I have to take exception to your comments about Slate&Shell. They explained to you up front that they don't sell books at a discount. That is simply their business model due to the small size of the English go book market and the costs of production. You obviously weren't calling to order books at list price - they would have been happy to fulfill such an order. You wanted some sort of discount and they have valid reasons for not discounting. To come on a public forum and make the remarks you have about them is very unfair. Many of us here on this forum have dealt with Slate&Shell for years and know them to be righteous business people with a true passion for the game. What you wanted and what they offer were simply not a fit and it was best left at that.

Gurujeet

[PeterHB]

The nub of the problem seems to be PeterB wanted discount, and was shocked that the publishers didn't offer discount. Appears that S&S, Kiseido & Yutopian believe it would be unprofitable to offer PeterB discount. PeterB believes that if he got discount he could sell large numbers, with profits to share with both PeterB and the publishers. Essentially a credibility gap.

So how to cut the gordian knot? Buy 100 copies of one book this week. Sell them. Buy another 100 copies next week. Sell them. Your credibility has changed at this point. Then have the discount conversation again before your 3rd order, pointing out the implications for the rest of the books on their list.

(The number of sales and the rate of sales are crucial to the argument. At a rate of just 1 a week, it becomes obviously loss making for S&S, Kiseido & Yutopian to offer discount. This is why the phrase 'volume discount' is often heard. )

I never asked for a discount from any of the publishers because I never got as far as discussing price with any of them. I contacted them, let them know my plans, asked for suggestions for beginner books and a price for a case of each. After Slate & Shell said this I told them to name their price, they still refused point blank.

This excerpt shows you asked for discount. A 'price for a case' is an implication that it is different from the price for a single item. You then wanted to negotiate on price, number of books in the case, or number of cases. For each figure you may have wished to refer to previous book buying experiences to negotiate from. That whole train of thought can be expressed succinctly as 'asking for a discount'. Ask a Moroccan market trader to name his price and he knows exactly what you are after. You are asking for a discount, no matter how cleverly veiled you think you are being. A Moroccan market trader is happy. Haggling is his mode of business. He will engage in negotiation immediately. S&S, Kiseido & Yutopian have a different mode of business, where they have clearly set out their stall being up front about their 'no discount' business model. Apples & oranges really.

In the end 'no discount' doesn't exist for anything. Its just a numbers and rate question. If you can sell 100 million widgets a week, you can get discount. If you can only buy 1 widget a year, you can't get discount. There is a grey area in between.

[kirkmc]

This is partly what's wrong with our economy at the moment.

Wow, what a sweeping statement based on contacts with a couple of very, very small publishers. I'll echo what others have said: I have dealt with Slate & Shell for years, and they are wonderful people. But they are just a husband and wife team. Kiseido has always been very nice to me, and they are - as far as I know - just one person. Yutopian is a bit less responsive, but, again, it's a husband and wife operation.

So what's wrong with our economy is that a number of micro-publishers are trying to make a living in a niche market?

All due respect, but you're used to dealing with bigger operations, and you can't accept that there are smaller publishers that can't afford to sell wholesale.

[tchan001]

It is not true that those publishers do not have discounted prices for their books, it's just that the discounts apply to everyone rather than to only distributors. And the discounts are at the time and prices of the publishers' choosing.

Kiseido had a great winter sales in Dec 2011 to Jan 2012 where they offered 10% discount for most books and free shipping anywhere in the world. That applied to anyone and for any number of books ordered.

S&S has had occasional sales usually around winter time where they sell some of their slower moving books at a discounted price. They also usually sell their newly published books at a sales price during the initial offering period.

Yutopian offers many of their older books at 10% to 25% discount on their website. It also offers big discounts for Yutopian and Kiseido books which were damaged during shipping.

There are two different functions being asked of the publishers in this instance:
1) identify books which fit my market [kid's with little to no experience with the game of go]
2) offer a special price for purchasing by the case

Function one is probably best served by looking at websites which have already identified books from different publishers which are good for beginners. For example try SL's Recommended First Books. And you can also discuss it better with go enthusiasts who freely offer advice on a forum like L19.

Function two as many have said already may be difficult for smaller go publishers who are set up only to sell through their own website. You rarely see books from those companies offered even on Amazon except from other people and usually in used condition. Perhaps the publishers would be more willing to listen if you were to tell them you would like to place a large order worth X amount of dollars and if you could get a discount for such an order.

[Insane]

Function two as many have said already may be difficult for smaller go publishers who are set up only to sell through their own website. You rarely see books from those companies offered even on Amazon except from other people and usually in used condition.

This is all understandable and I have experienced the same with books about some of my other special interests.
What impresses me is that most go books actually are in print.

I do however think that most people feel more comfortable buying from either local physical shops or big well-known Internet dealers.
There is a threshold that has to be overcome before you make contact with an unknown small time operator living in some remote country.
Current practice is not optimal and I do hope that new business models will evolve, but we are unfortunately not there yet.

[RobertJasiek]

There is a threshold that has to be overcome before you make contact with an unknown small time operator living in some remote country.

"Small time operators" in a well known community (such as go) are the lower risk because they do everything not to hurt their reputation. In case of big companies, one cannot always say the same.

[JustAnotherKyu]

There is a threshold that has to be overcome before you make contact with an unknown small time operator living in some remote country.

"Small time operators" in a well known community (such as go) are the lower risk because they do everything not to hurt their reputation. In case of big companies, one cannot always say the same.

If I see an item on amazon, I don't hesitate. It's my preference to purchase off of amazon. Although, I will say that I've bought from dozens of smaller companies' sites over the years and have never had an issue. It still so happens that I look for, and have a preference for always going through amazon if possible.

Let's face it. Purchasing online there are only a few "big companies". One of these, and perhaps, the largest, is amazon. I've never heard an in real life bad experience about amazon. They are brutal when dealing with their sellers. It makes me, the selfish consumer, feel secure. Maybe within my next 1,000 purchases off of amazon I'll have a bad experience. Until then.

Maybe you aren't referring to amazon. You're statement is ambiguous, thus hurting it. It forces me to attempt to reason and allow for all potential circumstances. This is a tad frustrating. Maybe you wouldn't mind providing a more substantial case; I'm unable understand how you are able to make such an assertion.

[RobertJasiek]

Ah, uh, oh, of course Amazon is reliable, well, except (German Amazon) for the packing of harddisks. And, yes, I agree: third sellers are watched well.

If you want a bad example: Magix. Sold software with a feature that turned out to be missing, had dozens of major bugs, then wanted a trojan's secret report from the customer's PC.

[kirkmc]

I've had plenty of problems with Amazon - poor packing, damaged objects, things that didn't work right. But Amazon resolves every problem quickly and efficiently, so I know that anything I buy from them will be replaced or refunded in case of problems. While I feel they have become too big, I still buy from them, because they offer low prices and the type of customer service that most companies can't offer. It looks as though Amazon is more than willing to take a hit for an order to make sure that order is delivered correctly and to ensure that the customer comes back.

[gogameguru]

Reading through this thread reminds me of some of my own experiences with certain Go book publishers, but I think the discussion could also do with some more facts and less conjecture.

My view is that the economy around Go needs to get stronger in order to help raise money that can be used to promote the game, but other people operate based on totally different premises and so they reach totally different conclusions. And it's incredibly difficult to convince people to change their minds.

Firstly, all the businesses involved in Go that I've talked to give a significant discount for quantity (and I've talked to most of them in the English speaking world). That includes Kiseido, Yutopian and Slate and Shell (and tchan, it's a lot more than the 10% you talked about, that's just a sale). But (and this is a big but) it depends on where you're located and where you intend to sell the books as to whether they will give you a full discount, or whether they will deal with you at all. For us, doing business in Australia and Europe was fine, but as soon as we expanded to ship books from within the US (keeps postage costs down for customers), things became difficult.

Secondly, it's a myth (or self-fulfilling prophecy?) that people don't want to buy Go books. I hear people repeat this over and over without having any real experience or information about it. Go Game Guru sells books worldwide on a daily basis, many of them to new players. And we could sell more if certain publishers were more cooperative, but they view us strictly as a competitor and a threat, rather than a business partner, which I think is sad. For most publishers, their biggest problems are distribution and marketing. If they really are having trouble, as people say, they should reflect on why they can apparently sell SmartGo books and not print books. It's not because print is dead, it's because SmartGo's marketing and distribution is so much better than theirs.

Let's not forget that the people who read this forum are mostly the hardcore of Go players. You might know who these publishers are and how to order from them, but there are tens of thousands of Go players around the world who aren't that serious, who don't go to tournaments, who don't join their local association etc. Some of them do use SmartGo though and some of them do read Go Game Guru.

Thirdly, for PeterB, or anyone who comes along later looking to distribute Go equipment or books in North America, here are the people you should contact:

1. Janice at Samarkand (for beginner books)
2. Chris at Hinoki Press (more advanced books)
3. Pong at Yellow mountain imports (books and equipment)

Other people you could contact who are based elsewhere (this isn't intended as an exhaustive list, rather, just a useful one):
4. (in Europe) Peter and Marianne at Schaak en Go winkel Het Paard (Kiseido's European representative).
5. Robert Jasiek (as he's written in his own reply above).
6. Younggil or I (David) at Go Game Guru.

All of the people above are friendly, good to deal with and will be happy to do business with you (based on my personal experience as well as that of others I've spoken too).

People who are difficult to deal with (NB: **when doing business in North America**) include:

1. Katherine and Sidney at Yutopian (Kiseido's US representative)
2. Bill and Laurie at Slate and Shell
3. Richard at Kiseido.

Now before someone attacks me for saying this, let me explain. You won't get anywhere dealing with Yutopian or Slate and Shell if you plan to sell anything in North America, because both of them have a policy about trying to monopolise the US market. Whether it's a good policy is open to debate. I don't think it is, but neither of them will move an inch on it (believe me, I tried offering all kinds of arrangements in order to setup a comprehensive book shop). In addition it's not just PeterB, or me, who's had this experience. I've talked to several other people about it hoping to get some insight about how to come up with a win-win agreement, and they all told me to give up and not deal with them.

I'm not talking about these people at a personal level. Bill and Laurie especially seem like lovely and well meaning people and are very good to deal with buying books for a personal collection. I've bought many books from Slate and Shell over the years and always had good service (at one stage years ago I was even going to translate a Chinese book of Go Seigen's best games for them) and they also donate quite a few books to tournaments, but as soon as you try to do business within the US it's a different story.

Richard Bozulich at Kiseido in Japan won't be able to help you, because Yutopian have exclusive rights to distribute Kiseido books in the North American region and they choose to use that privilege to lock down the market. If you complain to Richard about this, he'll probably just get annoyed, because he can't really do much about it, even if he disagrees with them. And because I already made him really mad by pushing things a bit too far and asserting that Yutopian are massively under performing (which I still believe). This led to him playing a fairly ridiculous and cruel prank on me late last year, which was unfortunate... Don't make the same mistake that I did and don't try to bypass Yutopian by going to Richard. It doesn't work.

Because of the current situation with the major Go book publishers, we decided that it wasn't worth trying to deal with them anymore and let that part of our business go onto autopilot. We still sell books, we just won't put much time into getting new ones after we add a few more beginner books which are already sitting in the warehouses. We've found it much easier to deal with businesses in Asia, like Baduk TV and equipment manufacturers, because they seem more interested in working with new business partners.

This is a kind of regrettable situation, because it makes it harder for other people to help to promote and sell Go books and, consequently, limits the number of new books that get published in English. It hurts the people who write Go books, and since nobody can really get traction, it also hurts smaller publishers like Robert Jasiek. This is because books like Robert's (which are more advanced) are more what you would sell to a 4th or 5th time repeat customer, but to do that you need a comprehensive range to support it.

Anyway, I'm writing this to help anyone else who wants to try to sell Go books in the future and I hope you can save yourself a lot of time and frustration by not dealing with the wrong people. This is the last time I'm going to say anything about this because I'm tired of it. So if someone brings this up again in the future, perhaps you can point them to this post - that is, if you think there's any useful advice here at all...