useless questions

[Tryphon]

Question 1:
Have you ever experienced a sudden jump in strength because you learned/understood one particular subject (e.g. efficient positional judgement, understanding when and how to sacrifice stones, how to avoid aji-keshi, when to ignore atari, when to tenuki, etc)?

I feel like I'm learning sabaki. It's a pleasure to see my opponent asking himself how to answer a move that didn't cost me anything, it was the opposite for so long...

[HermanHiddema]

IMO, 90% of your go strength is reading power. Many other skills are useful only in that they support your reading

I disagree . Even though you are stronger and probably read deeper, I still like to respond

Nobody should ever feel inhibited in responding just because someone is a stronger player, especially on a topic as generic as this one

I considerer reading to be something like "spending time to calculate the expected result of one or more branches of at least several stones played on specific coordinates"
Examples are solving L&D, and most close combat moves (local fighting). This is of course very important, and it forms a big part of the game.

Yes, I agree. I also consider choosing joseki and then looking at possible follow-ups as reading, as well as choosing between opening moves (e.g: Do I play 4-4 or 4-3 here, do I approach high or low, what will he play then, how can I use it to develop my moyo?)

However, every other move does not really require reading and you will rely more on positional judgement, instincts, knowledge of shapes (empty triangle, bamboo) and paterns (joseki, common openings paterns (chinese, kobayashi), monkeyjump ect.)

Yes, very often you will be in a one way street, where you don't have to read, because deviating from a sequence, such as a joseki or a standard tesuji sequence (e.g. stone tower tesuji), will certainly be disastrous.

But when I say 90% is reading, I don't meant "You're busy reading on 90% of your moves". You're probably busy reading on less than half your moves, most of your moves are playing out chosen sequences. But choosing a sequence and then playing it is all part of reading, IMO. All those moves are the result off reading.

I think depending on the style of a person and the like or dislike that person has with respect to reading.
Someone with a peaceful style and dislike of reading might still be strong because of other qualities (including evading complex situations that require reading) and rely for only 30-40% on reading.
Someone with an aggressive style who likes to read could be strong but will also need other general knowledge. he can of course complicate the game and maybe rely for 70% on reading.

I think that around 70% really is the maximum. anything above that will lead to extremely unbalanced games that do not result in good and strong play.

I think That I rely on reading for not more than 40-50% of my moves. the rest is positional judgement, shapes and paterns.

In short:
I think reading is indeed very important. But with only 10% of judgement you can't play a normal game.
you need to know what moves to read in order to get some useful results. For that you need a lot more than 10% of judgement

I think it's more like 50-50. and for a strong reader maybe 75-25

*edit: hmmm that is a lot of "I think", maybe I should do more of that during my games

I think we're looking at this from different angles. As I said, I do not mean that you will be reading on 90% of your moves. Many of them are played without a second thought. What I mean is this:

You thinking time is basically spent on three things:

1. Reading out sequences
2. Judging the resulting positions
3. Playing moves

I think that the vast majority of your time is pent on the reading part. The judgment part is very often instantaneous (Thinking: A, B, C, D, bad result; E, F, G, H, good result; E, B, G, D, difficult fight; A, B, G, H peaceful; etc). The playing part is just the mechanical action.

There are very few exceptions to this. Playing out a known fuseki, such as low Chinese, involves no reading. But it also takes hardly any time. As soon as you start doubting, you're reading (e.g: High Chinese or low Chinese? He played a 4-5 stone, is high better now? What if he make that shimari? Maybe I shouldn't play Chinese now? Hmmm...)

Another exception is instinct moves. Making a one point jump into the center because it feels necessary. Defending against a peep. But again, those kinds of moves take very little time.

So I think that being able to read faster and deeper in the allotted time is really 90% of your playing strength.

[topazg]

Question 1:
Have you ever experienced a sudden jump in strength because you learned/understood one particular subject (e.g. efficient positional judgement, understanding when and how to sacrifice stones, how to avoid aji-keshi, when to ignore atari, when to tenuki, etc)?

I feel like I'm learning sabaki. It's a pleasure to see my opponent asking himself how to answer a move that didn't cost me anything, it was the opposite for so long...

Sounds more like you're learning probes to me

[freegame]

you got a big responce to your "usless questions"

"spending time to calculate the expected result of one or more branches of at least several stones played on specific coordinates"

Freegame, you should consider becoming a patent attorney in your technical field
Joke aside, that's also what I understand from the term "reading".

And still it was not clear enough

I considered the percentage of moves where I spend reading, not the time spend on reading.
I probably also spend 90% of my time reading only 40% of the moves. The other 60% of the moves are played in the remaining 10% of the time.


But anyway, I think everyone will agree that reading and judgement are both very important aspect of the game. They are both needed to play a (balanced) game. Because reading is for most people the least favorite part to study, it also is usually the weakest part of peoples game. This makes it very useful to improve your reading to get stronger.

You can can compensate for a weakness by being good in other aspects of the game, so your rank is not reflected by your biggest weakness. However, your biggest weakness does have a big impact on your rank. If you want to get stronger it's therefore most efficient to improve your weakest aspect of the game.

[entropi]

Sounds more like you're learning probes to me

Is "probes" an important concept to learn or is it just a definition? It is obviously not a forcing move, not a double purpose move, not even a sente move, but only a move that gives the opponent the chance of selecting the variation that suits him the best. I have never understood why (or when) such a thing is considered good (unless of course that is your only option, e.g. to start an invasion). If that is the only definition of "probe" then what is there to learn about this concept?

[topazg]

Sounds more like you're learning probes to me

Is "probes" an important concept to learn or is it just a definition? It is obviously not a forcing move, not a double purpose move, not even a sente move, but only a move that gives the opponent the chance of selecting the variation that suits him the best. I have never understood why (or when) such a thing is considered good (unless of course that is your only option, e.g. to start an invasion). If that is the only definition of "probe" then what is there to learn about this concept?

Hmmm, I would have said a probe is a forcing move, a double purpose move and a sente move normally

It is a move where you force the opponent to decide where he places his value on the board, and then you can act accordingly. If my opponent doesn't want the corner. I will live there, if he does, I have bonus aji to help me reduce or invade on the side instead, for example.

[freegame]

Probes are indeed difficult things.

Probes are played to see how your opponent will respond. There always need to be multiple answers for your opponent, else it's not a probe. Based on his response you then decide how to play out some other variation or situation on the board, usually leaving the probe move there as aji that can be exploited later. If you immediately follow up on your probe, it was more of an invasion, (one where your opponent could decide how to respond) and less of a probe. You will in this case likely end in gote and not have the advantage of deciding how to play out something else on the board, an advantage that is the main purpose of a real probe.

Example:

$$B Corner
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b W d . . . .
$$ | . . a X c . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Corner
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . b W d . . . .
$$ | . . a X c . . . .
$$ | . . . , . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

The white stone is a common probe, It usually is sente. It can maybe also be considered multi-purpose.
Now black has to decide what he considers most important by selecting a move between a-d. depending on blacks choice white can for example decide on a reduction or invasion somewhere else.

[Magicwand]

臨機應變
i am not sure in chinese but this is characters we use in Korea.
and dictionary definiton is:
adaptation to circumstances ― act according to circumstances;adapt oneself to circumstances

probe is a skills you must have in order to be strong.
that is a skills that differentiate weak from strong.
i suggest you learn some simple probe for start and try to understand the concept if you want to go up in Rank.

edit: above example given by freegame is ok but little complicated. i suggest learn simple a or b example if you have hard time understanding it.

[kokomi]

I have only experienced sudden jump down rather than up, especially after i read a book or studied kifu that different from my style.

[HermanHiddema]

Simple example:

$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . O c . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . a O . . 2 . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . O c . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . . a O . . 2 . . , . . . O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The probe asks white "On which side do you want to make territory". Then says: "Oh this side? Well you can't have it."

Note that White would love to play at a if black didn't play 3, to make a huge corner. Black will later still have either a or b to deal with the upper right.

$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . c O . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 2 . . O . O . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . c O . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , 2 . . O . O . a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If white chooses the other side, then denies him too much territory there. Again, White would love to play a move like a to finish the corner, if black didn't play . And moves b an c are available to limit the potential of the upper left.

So by making the opponent choose a side first, black is able to play the proper invasion based on that information.

Another example:

$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a b . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . a b . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Here is a common probe. White usually replies at a or b

$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . 7 . . a . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 5 . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 8 . 7 . . a . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 5 . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If you don't play the probe, but finish the joseki first, is a good move that threatens to invade at a while strengthening the corner.

$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . 9 . . a . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 7 . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 . . 9 . . a . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 7 . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If white responds to the probe with , then after the situation is better for black, because the invasion at a is no longer severe.

$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . 9 . . . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 7 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 6 . . 9 . . . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 7 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If white responds with , then black can choose the sequence up to , which doesn't leave the same invasion that the hanging connection would.

$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 . 7 . a . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 5 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 . 7 . a . 3 2 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 5 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If white foregoes the probe, and plays the solid connection sequence immediately, then white will play like this, and there is an invasion at a later.

So effectively, the probe is asking white to choose a move in the upper left first. Black can then determine the proper line of play in the upper right based on that extra information.

[entropi]

That was really enlightnening about probes. It will probably need a lot more experimenting and thinking to digest the information, but at least I have very good starting point. Thank you very much!

[Bill Spight]

Question 1:
Have you ever experienced a sudden jump in strength because you learned/understood one particular subject (e.g. efficient positional judgement, understanding when and how to sacrifice stones, how to avoid aji-keshi, when to ignore atari, when to tenuki, etc)?

Question 2:
Is a go player as weak as its weakest part of the game (e.g. L&D, capturing races, endgame, positional judgement, etc) or as strong as its strongest?

Q 1: Yes. I made a big jump when I realized that I was playing too long in local regions. Simply realizing that I needed to tenuki more was a big help.

Q 2: There are so many go skills that being good in some areas can compensate for being bad in others, and the game is so long that a single error rarely produces a loss, except at the highest levels. Still, I think that weaknesses are more of a drag than strengths pull you up. My guess is that it is hard to play more than 3-4 stones stronger than your weakest area, and easy to play 9 stones weaker than your strongest area.

[Bill Spight]

Q1: yes. even when i was 1Dan level i have learned to defend myself more and avoided confrentation. i felt that i got 1 stone stronger than before.
Q2: if you can kill your opponents in the beginning you dont need endgame skills

If you can kill your opponents in the beginning, you have endgame skills.

[phrax]

I experienced a large jump after a Yang workshop. I think most of it went over my head. One thing that stood out for me was the basic technique of when to typically extend or cut in a fight. That probably took me up 2 stones without knowing completely what I was doing. Granted, I was about 14kyu, and all jumps in rank seemed faster then.

Since then I've occasionally had epiphanies where I thought I suddenly saw things 2 stones stronger, but frustratingly could only play about a half stone stronger. I've learned to take what I can get (while striving for more)

[fwiffo]

Q1: Actually, I originally said that the only time I had an increase in strength attributable to a particular piece of knowledge. Now that I think about it, that's just the most recent example (though it was a while ago). It used to happen all the time as a DDK. And for beginners (20-30k), it's common for a single new piece of understanding to increase their strength by a couple stones. I mean, grokking that two eyes makes life (and why) obviously causes an increase in strength.

Looking back, I think I can attribute several stones worth of improvement to reading Attack and Defense for the first time as a DDK (though I felt like it was mostly over my head). I think people are just about always using hyperbole when they say such-and-such book made them two stones stronger. A&D really does (at least for players of the appropriate level).

Q2: I think it's *mostly* a "weakest link" situation. Like, I'm better at the opening and joseki than the average 4k, but my reading and direction of play is weak. So even if I get an advantage in the opening, I usually squander it.

@Herman: Those are the most instructive probe examples I've seen. At my level, I'm just starting to try probes but haven't really understood them well. Like I get that I'm supposed to choose my follow-up based on my opponent's response to my probe, but I usually don't have it worked out what those follow-ups might be. Those examples would be good candidates for a Sensei's page.