Does losing hurt?

[Shentar]

Losing can hurt, but it does not always. I attribute this to my state of mind going into the game. If I play when stressed out, I find I look at the game as a temporary escape from the pressures of life. I invest more than I should in the hope of winning, and should I lose, it can be devastating. If I am relaxed, however, I don't get so vested. There are times in this state when a loss is disappointing, but I wouldn't say it hurts.

For this reason I have become rather picky about when I play. I study frequently, but have only played around a dozen games in the last six months. This may stunt my improvement, but instead of feeling distressed upon losing, I can look at the game to find some new piece of information to supplement my recent studies.

[mayweed]

When I play, I give my best. If I lose, my opponent was simply better than me at my best. It happens (frequently and that's a good thing). When it's me who wins, that's the opposite.

In fact the only game I'm not satisfied with are the games in which I don't give my best for a reason or an other (was tired, tipsy or simply fed up...). No matter if I win or lose, I just get fustrated...Feel bad...

If you want to progress you should accept defeat and learn from it to get stronger. It hurts of course, but if you can't overcome that feeling to see all the potential behind, it will be very difficult to move forward. And I think it's not only the case in the Go field

In fact, I don't take victory or defeat too personnally. The other day I win a game and the guy was just pissing on himself (I'm such a prick etc etc...), the game after, I lost and the guy was pissing on me to get a high idea of his level (the "I'm so good you're so bad" attitude) . Both takes all that too personnally...

If a lot a ppl hate losing it's oftenly because for them losing it's being a loser, there is nothing to win or lose, that's just a game and we're all here to progress.

[JarrodCL]

there is nothing to win or lose, that's just a game and we're all here to progress.

I agree with this...excellent advice, in my opinion.

[Koosh]

Hajin Lee, Korean 3p, has an article about insecurities on her English blog at the below address. It's an interesting read, and relates to this topic about how people feel after defeat.

Check it out if you're interested.
http://www.starbaduk.com/25338

[snorri]

But if you stop making all the mistakes you know about, you will be at least a stone stronger.

Very well said. The regrets come not so much from missing things that, upon review, were really beyond your ability to see, but in knowing that you deliberately did something that you knew was wrong.

[mongol]

Why is constant improvement important to you? It sounds a bit like you have attached too much personal (ego) value to Go, and look at it as a mirror of your personality, your self-worth, and a tool to measure your self-esteem by.

I think a lot of go players (myself included) attach some of their personal value to go. Some players would disconnect while losing so their rank wasn't affected, which is dumb because that number is essentially meaningless. If you're not quite 10k, you're not quite 10k regardless of the rank on the screen. Just study a bit and get back there. I also think it's a natural feeling to have, because it's a game we love. Just to get to single digit kyu requires a lot of study and effort.

I think the fear is that we've studied, didn't improve, and are afraid that's it for us. It was for me when I was high ddk.

Constant improvement in this game is something that I think is important to most, because there's always so much more to learn, which is what makes the game so fascinating. It also allows you to enjoy the game more.

Losing always hurts, but the pain is enjoyable too. If it didn't, we wouldn't experience the joy of winning. My 2nd congress was at Chicago in 2002 I believe, and I went 0-6 in the tournament, and that was most painful. But was a great time overall

[Ember]

I think a lot of go players (myself included) attach some of their personal value to go. [...] If you're not quite 10k, you're not quite 10k regardless of the rank on the screen. Just study a bit and get back there. I also think it's a natural feeling to have, because it's a game we love. Just to get to single digit kyu requires a lot of study and effort.

I think the fear is that we've studied, didn't improve, and are afraid that's it for us. [...]

Constant improvement in this game is something that I think is important to most, because there's always so much more to learn, which is what makes the game so fascinating. It also allows you to enjoy the game more.
[...]

That's nearly exactly how I feel about Go. Unfortunately, I tend to attach quite a bit of my "personal value" to Go, which means, that when I hit a barrier (just like now..) it is very difficult for me to keep on enjoying the game. Most important for me is constant improvement, as there is just SO much to learn (and so little time..) and it is really frustrating if you just don't progress and keep on making silly mistakes (as well as mistakes already unlearned). Enjoyment for me comes from a good game by both sides with interesting moves and as little (noticeable ) mistakes as possible.

But to answer the OP's question: I ticked "in between", because it depends on how the game was lost. If it was a good fight or a close game with interesting moves, I don't mind losing that much, it is part of the game. But if I made some silly mistakes and lose because of them, I can get quite mad at myself. I hope that Go can someday cure my perfectionism, as there ist not (yet) something like a perfect game and if there was, an amateur like me would never even come near such a level. Maybe what is called for is a change in the point of view of mistakes: they can make a game interesting, learning from each mistake a bit more about this wonderful game.

I don't know if anything of this makes any sense it just came to my mind while writing this. Interesting. Guess I'll go and think about it..

[shapenaji]

Well, I'm a fan of losing... extravagantly.

Daniel is right that you can probably gain a stone by doing what he suggests. It's also the easiest way I can think of to hit a wall.

If you see a move that excites and interests you, even if you can't read it all the way, you should play it. If you don't you're going to come to that same crossroads again in the future, and you won't have any additional knowledge or confidence. Playing for a safer win will advance you a stone or 2. (It DOES remove a number of mistakes from your play). On the other hand, playing at the very edge of your ability to read strengthens you far more over the long haul.

IMO, the safe win avoids what is hard. You need to stretch your mind to get stronger.

When you begin to measure your progress by the depth of your reading and the scope of your intuition, rather than by how many wins you can pull off, then losing has no barb.

[daniel_the_smith]

A couple nights ago at go club a 4d suggested I try to play to make both sides as uncomfortable as possible. The resulting 2 stone game went very well for me. I need to try it more, but I think it will help me. I've been losing most of my games since the AGA decided I was 2d, perhaps that's the wall shapenaji mentions.

If you imagine learning as a two part process, discovering new knowledge and consolidating existing knowledge-- my prior comment probably applies mainly to the consolidation phase. I only hinted at the discovery part. This probably reflects my own lopsided understanding.

[LordYunzi]

Yeah, erasing those idiot-mistakes would make me at least two stones better

Everyone who's involved in the game should get a little angry about losing. I TRY to use the anger as an extra motivation, but it happens that I have to logg off and get myself a non-go book...

[daal]

Sorry for dredging up a year old thread, but after losing a few games today, I thought of some of the things people had said back then which had helped me a lot, and the thought occurred to me: Losing is getting the butt that is your mind kicked, but I've gotten better at shaking it off. Of course it hurts, but it can also make you tougher.

[entropi]

Losing does not hurt but not improving does. I want to ask my fellow eternal kyu players, do you have a convincing explanation that does not hurt your ego, why a dan player managed to get to that level and you could not? Personally I cannot find an explanation, unless I lie to myself by thinking that each and every dan player played and/or studies much more than me. No, of course that is a lie, but then I really don't have an explanation. How do you fellow eternal kyu players cope with that feeling?

[jts]

Personally I cannot find an explanation, unless I lie to myself by thinking that each and every dan player played and/or studies much more than me.

They probably do. I mean, not each and every single one, but if you look at the game records for rapidly improving players, you'll often find that they play a lot. And given that some of them play on multiple servers and face to face, as well... How much they study is hard to say, but I'm perfectly happy to believe they study a lot too, even if they aren't ostentatious about it. And they probably study and play games in ways that are challenging, whereas I at least frequently study for amusement or self-satisfaction, and play games to relax.

And is it really so bad if it comes easily to them? If you go into the beginner's room and look at the DDKs, I think you'll find that you like the people who spent three months at 15k every bit as much as the people who spent three days at 15k. When it's other people, it's clearly not so important; and hopefully when you realize that other people see you in this light, you'll start to see yourself that way too.

[Boidhre]

Fascinating thread.

I have it fairly easy as a ddk. I can't really comment on losing being hard. Progress just happens as I iron out some of the easier to fix errors in my play or get a bit stronger in some part of the game or especially if my thinking suddenly changes about how to play. When the wall comes though it's going to be hard on me, I know it. I lose a lot but I play substantially stronger players a lot and I find when I come back to play people my level I've advanced a bit. Obviously I've no idea if this works for sdk's.

If I had some advice for other beginners and ddk's it'd be play stronger players and watch what they do substantially differently to you especially with regard to big moves, tenuki and sente moves. Progression just seems to happen for me if I do this despite me not having the time or energy to play many ranked games. If losing to substantially stronger players bothers you seriously, well I've no advice really, I play to learn not to win against them.

[Lamp]

I've found that when I play games in person, rather than over the internet, losing doesn't hurt as bad. Part of the social aspect is lost when you play over the internet, and I often feel like I'm not playing my best because I'm distracted, for example by my web browser open in the other window, or whatever else. So it's easy to place the blame on many different things. Plus, when I'm playing online, there is a very strong tendency to just give up and click if I can't think of anything else, even if I should have thought a little bit longer.

It's hard to explain, but I definitely think that playing in person will lead to more overall enjoyment and less hard times when you lose.