Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo

MountainGo · Post by **MountainGo** » Wed May 26, 2010 7:39 am

I'd like to get a Malkovich Batoo game going with whoever chimes in first, preferably close to my strength of KGS 5-kyu.

For the rules, read this post by Araban back at godiscussions. There are a couple minor rules points I'm still not clear on, though, if anyone who knows Batoo well wants to clarify:

1. What happens if both players bet the same amount during turn betting? It seems like the best thing to do would be to simply flip a coin (with the winner still paying points, of course), but I haven't seen it happen on the YouTube videos.
2. When you scan and miss, does your opponent see where you scanned? For our purposes, I don't see why they shouldn't.

As for the hidden information (base building, turn betting, hidden stone), I'm fine with using Hide tags unless someone wants to step in as a moderator who receives PMs of all that information.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . , . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . , . . . . . , . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | , . . . . . . . . . , | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . , . . . . . , . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . , . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

So who wants to play me?

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed May 26, 2010 7:45 am

I'll play if you don't mind playing me

Also, here are the transferred rules for playing on here I think?

1) Make a move, +1.
2) If you lose a byoyomi period, -2. (I suggest we scrap this for obvious reasons)
3) If you occupy a 3-3 point, -5 (4 of them). These are minus zones.
4) If you occupy the 1-6 or 6-1 points, +5 (4 of them). These are plus zones.

Presumably captures are a point each?

Play Stage 1) Base Building

Each player plays 3 moves to start the game up. You can't see where your opponent's 3 stones are until after both sides have set up their bases fully. This is called "building a base". If you and your opponent occupy the same point during the base building stage, neither players take that point and instead it becomes a minus zone.

Play Stage 2) Turn betting

Both players bet a certain number of points based on their opinion of the starting 6 stones. Whoever bets the higher amount gives that many points to the other player but as compensation gets to go first.

Play Stage 3) The game

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Extra rules:

1) Hidden stone: you play a move that your opponent cannot see. It remains invisible throughout the game (until it gets captured, you end up playing on it, or you play a move that captures something else that couldn't be done without the hidden stone. You can only use the hidden feature once, and it takes up a turn. If you bump into your opponent's hidden stone, you don't lose your turn.

For Batookovich games, it makes sense that for each move both players have analysis in a hidden box, and make sure the hidden move is always visible in this

2) The Scan feature also kind of speaks for itself, you play on an intersection to scan for a hidden stone. This does not take up a turn (so you can play a stone on the same turn you use scan).

Sol, I'm not sure about how this could work - presumably you can only do this once per turn otherwise you could find that hidden stone?

MountainGo · Post by **MountainGo** » Wed May 26, 2010 9:01 am

Sure, topazg, I'd be honored to play the creator of OGS.

I don't plan on taking this game super seriously, since it's my first time playing Batoo, so I'll probably focus more on trying out different ideas. I'll still post my thoughts, but I don't expect to be making big lists of variation diagrams.

For scoring, we don't really need to keep a running tally like the show, which presumably does so to make it more exciting. Without time penalties, the only extra thing to record is who takes the +/- zones, but you can just check the board for that, and they're often taken as miai points anyway.

I'll take Black (not that it matters). Here's my base. I assume the + zones can't be used at this stage.

And my initial thoughts:

Have fun!

MountainGo · Post by **MountainGo** » Wed May 26, 2010 9:34 am

topazg wrote:2) The Scan feature also kind of speaks for itself, you play on an intersection to scan for a hidden stone. This does not take up a turn (so you can play a stone on the same turn you use scan).

Sol, I'm not sure about how this could work - presumably you can only do this once per turn otherwise you could find that hidden stone?

I think you can only scan once per game.

Also, I just realized this should probably be in the Malkovich forum, so if a moderator wanted to move it there, that would be cool.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed May 26, 2010 10:40 am

MountainGo wrote:
topazg wrote:2) The Scan feature also kind of speaks for itself, you play on an intersection to scan for a hidden stone. This does not take up a turn (so you can play a stone on the same turn you use scan).

Sol, I'm not sure about how this could work - presumably you can only do this once per turn otherwise you could find that hidden stone?
I think you can only scan once per game.

Also, I just realized this should probably be in the Malkovich forum, so if a moderator wanted to move it there, that would be cool.

You can scan only once. If you find the hidden stone on your scan, it is revealed. If not, the scan is used up and you can't use it again.

Either way, if you chose to scan, it costs a couple of points. I forgot exactly how many. Maybe 1 or 2.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed May 26, 2010 10:43 am

topazg wrote:...
Presumably captures are a point each?
...

A capture takes the opponent's stone off the board. So the point(s) that he got for playing that (or those) stone(s) are removed from his score.

For example, if the opponent plays a two stone group on the board, he has gained two points because each move on the board is worth a point. So say he is black and the score, later in the game, is 12 points for black and 8 for white. Two of these 12 points were acquired by the two stone group that we are talking about. If white captures two of black's stones at this point, black's score is reduced to 10, because he no longer has the stones that gave him those points on the board.

Edit:
Also, along these same lines, I believe that if you occupy the 6-1 point, for example, and gain 5 points. You have those 5 points on your score, but later in the game, if the stone is captured, I believe that the 5 points are taken back away from you. I can verify this when I get home today.

Phelan · Post by **Phelan** » Wed May 26, 2010 11:14 am

Nope, I think you keep the 5 points. I remember that from one of the two games I tried.

I don't mind moderating if necessary, by the way.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed May 26, 2010 11:21 am

Phelan wrote:Nope, I think you keep the 5 points. I remember that from one of the two games I tried.

I don't mind moderating if necessary, by the way.

Could be the case - like I said, I can verify when I go home. I'm pretty sure about the capture part, though (for regular intersections).

topazg · Post by **topazg** » Wed May 26, 2010 11:26 am

So, I'm even more confused than I was. Every stone is worth a point, or every move? My understanding was the moves were worth points, and judging on the online scores (> 170 on a 13x13 board!?) you get extra points for making captures rather than them disappearing from the opponent.

Also, the 5 point places. Do you gain the points from having them at the end of the game? Or at the point you make them? If the latter, do they get taken away if that stone gets captured? After that stone gets captured, does someone else get the 5 points again for playing back in that point?

Only one scan, let's say it costs 2 points, that's fine, happy with that.

I think we should keep a score tally and add points every time we play a stone. Add more points for every capture as well as the played stone. I have no idea how to handle the + and - points though.

My Base:

Ok, so looking at MountainGo's base, this looks like the starting position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 0, W: 0 $$ +-----------------------+ $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . m . . . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | p . . . . . . . . . p | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . m . . . . . . . | $$ | . . m . X . . . m . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . p . . . . . | $$ +-----------------------+[/go]

I bet 4 points initially. Presumably we keep going up with the bets until someone accepts? Or should I have let you bet first? I guess it doesn't really matter

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed May 26, 2010 11:42 am

topazg wrote:So, I'm even more confused than I was. Every stone is worth a point, or every move? My understanding was the moves were worth points, and judging on the online scores (> 170 on a 13x13 board!?) you get extra points for making captures rather than them disappearing from the opponent.

The score fluctuates throughout the game. When you place a stone on the board, it adds to your current score. When it is removed from the board, it is taken away from the score.

At the end of the game, after both players pass, the empty spots of your territory are filled in with your own stones, so you get a large score. If you are surrounding 10 points of territory, for example, it's filled with your own stones.

I think the purpose of this was to try to make the score more dynamic and the game more exciting.

Also, the 5 point places. Do you gain the points from having them at the end of the game? Or at the point you make them? If the latter, do they get taken away if that stone gets captured? After that stone gets captured, does someone else get the 5 points again for playing back in that point?

I didn't really get the 5 point places the few times I've played. I mainly play just because of the free BadukTV.

But now I'm a little curious, so I'm going to look it up right now. Give me a few minutes, and I'll give an update.

MountainGo · Post by **MountainGo** » Wed May 26, 2010 11:51 am

Kirby wrote:
topazg wrote:...
Presumably captures are a point each?
...

A capture takes the opponent's stone off the board. So the point(s) that he got for playing that (or those) stone(s) are removed from his score.

For example, if the opponent plays a two stone group on the board, he has gained two points because each move on the board is worth a point. So say he is black and the score, later in the game, is 12 points for black and 8 for white. Two of these 12 points were acquired by the two stone group that we are talking about. If white captures two of black's stones at this point, black's score is reduced to 10, because he no longer has the stones that gave him those points on the board.

...which means that it's no different from regular go. (I'm not particularly interested in using the exact official scoring system, just an equivalent one.)

Edit:
Also, along these same lines, I believe that if you occupy the 6-1 point, for example, and gain 5 points. You have those 5 points on your score, but later in the game, if the stone is captured, I believe that the 5 points are taken back away from you. I can verify this when I get home today.

No, you keep the points, and the emptied point is no longer a + zone. (You can see it happen in this video.)

Zwergesel · Post by **Zwergesel** » Wed May 26, 2010 12:04 pm

The base stones are worth 5 points each by the way. (I think)

MountainGo · Post by **MountainGo** » Wed May 26, 2010 12:06 pm

topazg wrote:So, I'm even more confused than I was. Every stone is worth a point, or every move? My understanding was the moves were worth points, and judging on the online scores (> 170 on a 13x13 board!?) you get extra points for making captures rather than them disappearing from the opponent.

When you play a stone, you get a point. When a stone of yours gets captured, you lose that point. So it's the same as go. As for >170 points, are you sure? That seems absurdly high, even taking into consideration than you get extra points for these reasons: (1) Base stones are worth 5 points each. (2) Whoever loses turn betting receives points equal to his opponent's bet--usually around 7. (3) The + zones give about 10 extra per game per player. EDIT: Oh, I guess you meant >170 total, adding both players' scores? In that case it makes perfect sense. About 120 board points + 20 plus-zone points + 30 base stone points + turn betting.

Also, the 5 point places. Do you gain the points from having them at the end of the game? Or at the point you make them? If the latter, do they get taken away if that stone gets captured? After that stone gets captured, does someone else get the 5 points again for playing back in that point?

See my post above.

Only one scan, let's say it costs 2 points, that's fine, happy with that.

I was wrong earlier. I re-watched a video, and indeed scanning costs 2 points. So now I'm not sure if there's a limit on how many times you can use it or not.

As we discover/remember/inter-inform ourselves about all the score modifiers, it's seeming easier and easier to just keeping the running tally just like they do in the real game. So I agree we should do that. Easy enough to just change a number or two at the bottom of each board.

MountainGo · Post by **MountainGo** » Wed May 26, 2010 12:11 pm

topazg wrote:I bet 4 points initially. Presumably we keep going up with the bets until someone accepts? Or should I have let you bet first? I guess it doesn't really matter

Actually, the way it works is we each make only one bet, hidden from each other. Then they are both revealed and the higher better gives that many points to his opponent for the right to go first.

MY BET:

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Wed May 26, 2010 12:17 pm

Okay, here's some information that I looked up.

Your final score is:
(Your base stone count x 5) + Points you gained from the turn betting (if you gave your opponent the first turn) + (the number of plus points you played on x 5) - (the number of minus points you played on x 5) + the stones you have on the board + the territory that you are surrounding.

And, as stated earlier, you lose 2 points for scanning.

There might be some other scoring details, but I think that this is the general way to compute the score.

Life In 19x19

Batookovich #1: topazg vs MountainGo

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