Petty Complaints and Anxieties

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Shawn Ligocki
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Re: Petty Complaints and Anxieties

Post by Shawn Ligocki »

darWIN wrote:There's a difference between being nice and being honest. And you weren't honest. If the ranks were designed that way they wouldn't be numerical according to who is better, they'd be about style of play or something.


I'm being completely honest. I hope I didn't offend you! I really just want to spread my love of this game!

I don't see any reason that you should let your rank/ability make you unhappy. Every game/sport has rankings/scores measured with numbers. You can choose to measure your worth by that number, but you can also choose to have fun no matter what your number is. You can try to improve that number because you love the game and think that at a higher number, you will enjoy the game more. Or you can decided that you don't enjoy studying and prefer not to improve.

Any game works this way. You can be very competitive at Scrabble and try to optimize every play and memorize all the 2 letter words. Or you can just play for fun with friends and family and use normal words you think of in the moment. If you measure your worth by your score, then you'll do the first method, but you don't have to, the second one is fine, right?
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Re: Petty Complaints and Anxieties

Post by darWIN »

Shawn Ligocki wrote:
darWIN wrote:There's a difference between being nice and being honest. And you weren't honest. If the ranks were designed that way they wouldn't be numerical according to who is better, they'd be about style of play or something.


I'm being completely honest. I hope I didn't offend you! I really just want to spread my love of this game!

I don't see any reason that you should let your rank/ability make you unhappy. Every game/sport has rankings/scores measured with numbers. You can choose to measure your worth by that number, but you can also choose to have fun no matter what your number is. You can try to improve that number because you love the game and think that at a higher number, you will enjoy the game more. Or you can decided that you don't enjoy studying and prefer not to improve.

Any game works this way. You can be very competitive at Scrabble and try to optimize every play and memorize all the 2 letter words. Or you can just play for fun with friends and family and use normal words you think of in the moment. If you measure your worth by your score, then you'll do the first method, but you don't have to, the second one is fine, right?


That's not what I'm complaining about. It's a far more existential problem. Why would I complain about something so meaningless when everything is meaningless?
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Re: Petty Complaints and Anxieties

Post by Bantari »

darWIN wrote:Well, my usual complaint remains, as it did with chess, which I didn't play but my brother did and won a few trophies when he was a boy, the absurd elitism of the players. Perhaps this complaint is unfounded and based on an irrational fear of people, or simply my unfamiliarity with the culture. Don't know. Perhaps I am the elitist here, for not taking someone's amazing talent seriously enough.

However, I have always felt that there was a certain nightmare quality of taking something fun, and then exalting it to the point where it is no longer fun anymore, because only the game is important anymore, and winning, instead of just, a good way to spend free time. Perhaps I'm just worrying too much though. My main outlook on life has always been to always look on the bright side of life. Maybe that's something I just find humorous. Isn't the amount of competition there is what is fun about it, in the end, after all?

I suppose these anxieties come from being told that I was fairly good at the game. I just started playing a lot though, maybe a year ago. I feel like I don't understand the game at all. Even when I win I don't quite understand the strategy that I used, because I play intuitively and quickly. I also don't know if it was the right strategy, or what strategy is even going on. I suppose I understand that there's something going on about a delicate balance of what is important and what is not. But even if I win I still feel that what I did is almost completely incomprehensible to me.

Well, ridiculous maybe... A bit existential angsty.

The important clue here is, I think, what you said about being told that you are "fairly good at the game." I have seen it many times, and have to battle it myself - your ego start pumping up and your perception changes. You hang your pride on being "fairly good" and start having anxiety about losing and ultimately - about playing.

But its all about your personal perception, not about ranks or seriousness or whatever else "others" are doing - it is all internal problem. Nobody can really help you with that, I think, no change in what others do or think or say can fix your problem. Its something you have to fix yourself, or you might as well stop playing.

What helped me in the past in such situations were two thoughts:
1. I am really weak, still learning, no matter what my rank says or what others think, I am just learning, struggling, trying to do my best.
2. Nobody will care about the game I lost today when I win another tomorrow. Or the quote from somebody "Now that I am 5d, nobody cares about the games I lost when I was 5k."

In short - humility.
Well, I am still learning, its a life-long process.

PS>
About seriousness, elitism, and all that.
Go is a very deep game, and you can play it on many levels.
Many people play it for fun only and are not bothered by ratings, strength, and whatnot.
But many people take it more seriously, and they do care about that stuff. To be good at Go, if you care about being good, you need to take it seriously.

Taking Go seriously is not easy in the long run, you hit all kinds of roadblocks, bumps, and barriers. One of the hardest things is to stay motivated, to keep pushing even when the going gets tough. Some people use rank chasing and elitism to keep themselves motivated. I strongly dislike that approach, but I understand where some of this is coming from. So I usually just feel pity rather than getting angry, and try to never let it influence my own perception.

And then - some people are just jerks.
All of the above goes for almost any game you can think of, unless it is something as trivial as tic-tac-toe.
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Re: Petty Complaints and Anxieties

Post by DrStraw »

Abyssinica wrote:
DrStraw wrote:Why are you discussing high school football in a go forum?


I don't see football anywhere in his post. Maybe I'm blind. :scratch:


Well, I didn't see anything about go in the post either. And what he described seemed to me to be exactly how football is played. Maybe I just jumped to the wrong conclusion.
Still officially AGA 5d but I play so irregularly these days that I am probably only 3d or 4d over the board (but hopefully still 5d in terms of knowledge, theory and the ability to contribute).
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Re: Petty Complaints and Anxieties

Post by Abyssinica »

Bantari wrote:
darWIN wrote:
Image


Image



Having anxiety about losing is probably one of the things holding me back the most; I can never manage to get in more than 1 to 3 games a day, especially if I happen to win in them. However, one day, I played automatch. And then I did it again, and again. Before I knew it, I had played 10 games, went 4W/6L, and played go for 3 hours straight. Once you get started playing lots of games, playing lots of games without fear gets easier.

In my opinion, at least, staying motivated comes from believeing that you're better than how you play. If you made a mistake, yell at yourself that you're better than the mistake and use that as motivation for studying harder - for actually becoming better than the mistake. It's probably inherently flawed, but if I just felt pity that I lost because of X and Y and Z, then I might say, "Oh well. Nothing I can do. Guess I'm a permanent DDK" rather than getting angry and using that anger as a start point for doing productive things. "WHAT? I LOST? WELL I'M GOING TO JUST PLAY 10X MORE GAMES, DO 50 TSUMEGO A DAY, AND READ THE ENTIRETY OF <insert X book here> WHILE PLAYING IT ON MY BOARD. I'LL SHOW YOU!"
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Re: Petty Complaints and Anxieties

Post by Monadology »

Abyssinica wrote:In my opinion, at least, staying motivated comes from believeing that you're better than how you play. If you made a mistake, yell at yourself that you're better than the mistake and use that as motivation for studying harder - for actually becoming better than the mistake. It's probably inherently flawed, but if I just felt pity that I lost because of X and Y and Z, then I might say, "Oh well. Nothing I can do. Guess I'm a permanent DDK" rather than getting angry and using that anger as a start point for doing productive things. "WHAT? I LOST? WELL I'M GOING TO JUST PLAY 10X MORE GAMES, DO 50 TSUMEGO A DAY, AND READ THE ENTIRETY OF <insert X book here> WHILE PLAYING IT ON MY BOARD. I'LL SHOW YOU!"


For some people, this approach definitely works. For others, it holds them back because self-criticism won't entirely translate into productivity. Their anger at themselves will persist even when they use it to motivate them and the result will be frustration and low self-esteem. It will also back-fire for some if they start practicing and don't see results.

On the flipside, the approach Bantari suggested doesn't equate to pity, though it might work out that way for some people. It's not so much assuming that you're a particular rank as acknowledging that you will never really understand Go and using that recognition to let go of identifying with your rank. In a certain way, it's Socratic. Socrates certainly wasn't one for self-pity.

tl;dr: Different approaches will work for different people.
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Re: Petty Complaints and Anxieties

Post by joellercoaster »

I had wondered where DarWIN had got to. Welcome back.

Maybe one of the wonderful things about Go is its endless number of faces: to some it can be just a board game, something to occupy the mind and pass some friendly time. And to others, a source of a lifetime obsessive study, driven by existential angst, fascination or the need to pay the bills!

All of those things are brought to Go by the player, not the game (or even the community). If Go inflames your angst, don't play it, but it's your angst. I suspect you are aware of that though.

(Also, kind of a tangent but I really like the response from the person who said ranks are best seen as an indicator of whom it would be fun to play, rather than some absolute calculation of your worth as a human being. Do you find that a helpful idea? If not, you can always go to KGS and play as [-]).
Confucius in the Analects says "even playing go is better than eating chips in front of tv all day." -- kivi
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Re: Petty Complaints and Anxieties

Post by darWIN »

joellercoaster wrote:I had wondered where DarWIN had got to. Welcome back.

Maybe one of the wonderful things about Go is its endless number of faces: to some it can be just a board game, something to occupy the mind and pass some friendly time. And to others, a source of a lifetime obsessive study, driven by existential angst, fascination or the need to pay the bills!

All of those things are brought to Go by the player, not the game (or even the community). If Go inflames your angst, don't play it, but it's your angst. I suspect you are aware of that though.

(Also, kind of a tangent but I really like the response from the person who said ranks are best seen as an indicator of whom it would be fun to play, rather than some absolute calculation of your worth as a human being. Do you find that a helpful idea? If not, you can always go to KGS and play as [-]).



Yes, I do like that idea of ranks, and part of my being this critical and annoying was there's this guy at my Go club who talks during games and even though at first he was saying, since he knew the game better than me, he was being helpful, I feel like he's just trying to psych me out, and sometimes he can just say things that are just really rude and he hurt my feelings the other day. Sorry for taking it out on you guys.
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Post by EdLee »

darWIN wrote:there's this guy at my Go club who talks during games
Hi darWIN, Sorry to hear that. Your options include:
  • Don't play him; yes, if your club is small, this may be annoying;
  • Have a chat with him, let him know politely and calmly that kibitz during a game is very bad form; see how he takes it.
  • If he says very rude things, you can call him out on it right away.
  • Work very hard, improve way past his Go level, and completely crush him on the board. (Unfortunately, for some people, even this will not shut them up. )
  • Any combinations of the above.

What's his Go level? (Go level is independent of other levels in life; I'm curious. If your descriptions of him are accurate, then his level is not good in some areas.)
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Re: Petty Complaints and Anxieties

Post by Polama »

darWIN wrote:Yes, I do like that idea of ranks, and part of my being this critical and annoying was there's this guy at my Go club who talks during games and even though at first he was saying, since he knew the game better than me, he was being helpful, I feel like he's just trying to psych me out, and sometimes he can just say things that are just really rude and he hurt my feelings the other day. Sorry for taking it out on you guys.


Ha, yes, we've got a chatterer at my go club as well. I don't know about yours, but as far as I can tell ours just doesn't have a filter between his brain and mouth. It's tricky too, because he'll kibitz and say "oh, that's the only move", but he's often wrong, so you have to separate out what he's saying from your own strategy and reading, and it's a bit confusing. Even just having him talking about other topics right beside me elevates my blunder rate as my brain jumps around.

People like that you can just politely ask to shut up, explain that it's distracting you and that you'd be happy to review after the game. My approach is to view it as another facet of go self-cultivation. Now that I know his chatter reduces my ability, I'm trying to learn to play my top game with it around. I figure if I can focus with that, I can focus in any environment I find myself playing go at. Same idea if your opponent is rude: it's incredibly satisfying to play a bad sport who tries to get you off your game and just calmly ignore him and wend your way to victory. You'll find a few folk you just can't mesh with in any activity and any coping skills you develop for them will help you immensely in life.
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Post by EdLee »

Polama wrote:ours just doesn't have a filter between his brain and mouth.
Hi Polama, yes, seems to be not uncommon. Same question: what's your guy's Go level ?
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Re:

Post by darWIN »

EdLee wrote:
darWIN wrote:there's this guy at my Go club who talks during games
Hi darWIN, Sorry to hear that. Your options include:
  • Don't play him; yes, if your club is small, this may be annoying;
  • Have a chat with him, let him know politely and calmly that kibitz during a game is very bad form; see how he takes it.
  • If he says very rude things, you can call him out on it right away.
  • Work very hard, improve way past his Go level, and completely crush him on the board.
  • Any combinations of the above.

What's his Go level? (Go level is independent of other levels in life; I'm curious. If your descriptions of him are accurate, then his level is not good in some areas.)



Well, he says he's a kyu, but he's never been specific, and I've never been curious. Another guy who says he's a 2 kyu did the same thing, I'd get his stones to a place where they were in serious danger of being captured, and so I'd continue to capture them, and he'd say, "that's alright you can do that later." but he just said that so he could save them later, I realized after the game when I lost a fight I was winning. Later I got so angry because I listened to him, just because he said he was 2 kyu. I've still taken pieces of his though. So ha ha.

I mean, there are nice people there too, who I've played, who don't chatter during a game. Let the stones do the talking.
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Re: Petty Complaints and Anxieties

Post by darWIN »

I mean, I don't mind chatting after the game, just during I do not like. Actually the guy who tricked me into letting him escape, is fairly interesting, he said he learned Go in the military in Korea and that the military gave him LSD. I am still unclear as to why, but he also says he has met the actual Baba Ram Das, one of the chemists who made LSD and took it and then went all crazy about Yoga. I've never touched the stuff, but apparently a possible side effect is becoming an Asian.
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Post by EdLee »

darWIN wrote:he just said that so he could save them later,
Ah, would be most helpful to have the game record. Otherwise, impossible to know exactly what was the situation on the board.
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Post by EdLee »

darWIN wrote:I've never touched the stuff, but apparently a possible side effect is becoming an Asian.
Not sure what this means. :scratch:
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