Life In 19x19

Does the winning % vary much between them? (not that that's authoritative, but it's interesting...)

441/890 for A, 399/764 for B.
Win proportion:
A: 0.496
B: 0.522
90% confidence interval:
A: (0.4918, 0.5525)
B: (0.4674, 0.5236)

So B actually has a better win % than A, but the confidence intervals overlap, so the difference isn't statistically signficant

I'm worried about his shimari down in the lower right corner. I'm wondering what I need to do neutralize it. I don't like approaching shimaris, since they're powerful. I, also, want to approach his upper right. If I approach the upper right, the approach will be high.

With this joseki in mind.

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[go]$$Wc One possible choice for me
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . 7 , . 5 . 1 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a . . c b . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But, the problem with this joseki and its twin brother is that they both end in gote for me, and I really don't want Black to play around 'a', since that is the perfect extension (I feel like) from the shimari for Black. I really need to keep sente if I approach the upper right AND get to 'b' or 'c' before he can play 'a'.

Suji wrote:I'm going to have to think about this.

I'm worried about his shimari down in the lower right corner. I'm wondering what I need to do neutralize it. I don't like approaching shimaris, since they're powerful. I, also, want to approach his upper right. If I approach the upper right, the approach will be high.

Could you explain why you prefer the high vs the low approach? Or approach in that direction? What are your main candidate moves right now?

On why I'm leaning toward the high approach right now, it's something that Shygost said (I haven't been through all the lectures yet.) that with two star-point stones the joseki that I showed works well. Basically, he said that I'm guaranteeing that since I'm giving him ~10 points of territory, I'll get at least that amount back.

Another way of looking at it is that I am buying a stock for $10. My hope is that the stock rises in value, and that I'll make money. My fear is that the stock will lose value, and that I will lose money.

If I played the low approach to his top right, it honestly wouldn't be terrible. But the joseki that I picked, it works well with my two star-point stones. Not to mention that the joseki is influence based and according to my first two moves it keeps everything consistent. (I hope.)

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[go]$$Wc Moves I'm considering.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e e . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . , . . . . . , d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b b . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Those are the moves that I'm considering in roughly that order.

As for approaching in that direction, there's really not any logic that I'm using. When the game gets to this point when I play online, I usually don't approach inside their base like 'e' on the diagram. Then they can pincer me and it's not fun. I really don't like getting pincered either, since I'm not sure what to do when I get pincered.

So, I guess that I want to approach, as in the joseki that I'm thinking about, because I have a friendly stone in the top left. It gives him less incentive to pincer me.

I hope that I made sense.

Okay, I really wanted to approach the upper right, but based on the limited joseki knowledge that I have I couldn't see a way for it to end in sente for me based upon the joseki that I showed in an earlier post.

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[go]$$Wc Wanted to avoid this
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . y y y . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . x x x . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

I didn't want Black to play at one of the x's in the diagram above. That would expand Black's shimari beautifully, and if I don't either invade or reduce soon, I'm going to be behind if Black also gets 'y'. I want to avoid this if possible. If that means not getting to approach the upper right, so be it.

Two questions:

(1) What is your goal in approaching black's shimari (specifically, why two spaces away)?
(2) How do you expect black to respond, and how will you handle?

At first I dismissed the obvious pincer since it is attacking a weak stone but I think the following sequence is pretty good for me. And although most of the other standard approaches or extensions all seem a bit passive so although a or b were actually my first thoughts (and probably what I would have played if I hadn't over thought this).

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[go]$$Wc Move 6
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And his invasion at a seems like a logical follow up but as far as I can read it looks good for me.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Move 6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Truth be told I typed this up a couple of times with different moves. I feel a bit lost in previously familiar territory. I've been reading some more advanced stuff about the opening and in place of my old shimari-extend-approach-invade dogma are more nebulous "ideas" and "concepts" with which I am not yet fully confidant.

I may have just over thought myself into a substandard move.

Looking at it now as a proper diagram I am much more confidant about my move. I can just smell Suji's fear. Mmmm... fear smells good.

It's attaching to weak stones that is generally a no-no. Attacking them is fine and good.

If white wants to play on this side, this is much, much better. 4th line is fine too.

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[go]$$Wc Move 6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think white is waaaay too worried about that shimari.

SinK wrote:At first I dismissed the obvious pincer since it is attacking a weak stone

Clearly I am 30k as this is pretty much all I know how to do. XD

White's last was a mistake. Below looks like a good way to punish it to me.

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[go]$$Bc Move 6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 2 . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . . . 1 . O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As other folks have pointed out, white has erred. To explain slightly more for DDKs, this is a fairly textbook example of playing too close to strength.

To take a few rough examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Normal
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Something like this is pretty normal, right? Approach a corner stone, to try to claim a foothold on the bottom. Great. This works because your opponent has two things to worry about: defending their corner stone or attacking your approaching stone. If your opponent attacks your stone (with a pincer, for example), you can invade the corner or approach the other side of the corner to change directions. If your opponent defends their corner, you can defend your own stone, making a stable group.

However, what if your opponent's group is already strong?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Normal
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . 1 . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Then, your opponent does not have to worry about defending his own group, so he gets to focus on attack. Since he has no weak spots, you have no options (like jumping into the corner, changing directions, and so on), so you are left with a weak stone under attack, and your opponent gets to attack you for free.

As a result, it is much better to approach strength from farther away, so that your opponent cannot attack you directly.

You said you have been reading some different stuff? What have you been reading, compared to what you were reading before?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc Looking back...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a . . . W . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Looking back, this may have been a mistake seeing his response. Honestly, I didn't look at specific variations to get to this move. Though in my thought process I didn't want him to get both 'a' points. Because, then I would have to reduce or invade neither of which I'm particularly good at, at this stage.

Even if he got J3, I might depending on the circumstances have to reduce or invade. Maybe, I made this move out of fear. I wanted him to attend to the right side near the star point. I knew he was going to pincer me.

So, then, you ask, Why did you play such a move? Probably because I was scared of his possibilities on the bottom with the shimari. Emotion was telling me one thing, while logic was telling me another. In Go, at least for me, emotions dictate the kind of moves you play. Emotions can be both good and bad in this sense.

Now, how to survive this debacle? I'm not sure, but I know that I'm going to have to start listening to my head and not my emotions, especially fear, if I want to get better at Go.

Suji wrote:
Even if he got J3, I might depending on the circumstances have to reduce or invade. Maybe, I made this move out of fear. I wanted him to attend to the right side near the star point. I knew he was going to pincer me.

So, then, you ask, Why did you play such a move? Probably because I was scared of his possibilities on the bottom with the shimari. Emotion was telling me one thing, while logic was telling me another. In Go, at least for me, emotions dictate the kind of moves you play. Emotions can be both good and bad in this sense.

Now, how to survive this debacle? I'm not sure, but I know that I'm going to have to start listening to my head and not my emotions, especially fear, if I want to get better at Go.

Good thoughts . Two ideas to consider - (1) You probably can't prevent your opponent from getting something from his shimari. (2) You probably can prevent your opponent from getting an ideal extension. You probably know that black wants to extend to K3 from his shimari. If white forces black's extension to be shorter (closer to his own strength), this is positive for white, even if it means black gets some territory.

Yeah, one thing I really have to learn is that I can't have my cake and eat it too.

Now that I've gotten myself into a predicament, is it better to tenuki or fight? I'm leaning to the latter.