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Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:40 am
by Aphelion
Well, yea, D9 does look like a mistake. However, if you look at this diagram (which is the closest I could make it to a reasonable seeming order of moves), Black made two very bad but urgent moves, but White tenukied to both of them, so White has made at least one mistake. Hence my comment about it being a ddk game :) I would rather let the mistake be D9, because its easy to treat light. I'm also wondering oso, is this one of your games?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Looks like a ddk game?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . 8 . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:11 am
by Magicwand
Aphelion wrote:Well, yea, D9 does look like a mistake. However, if you look at this diagram (which is the closest I could make it to a reasonable seeming order of moves), Black made two very bad but urgent moves, but White tenukied to both of them, so White has made at least one mistake. Hence my comment about it being a ddk game :) I would rather let the mistake be D9, because its easy to treat light. I'm also wondering oso, is this one of your games?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Looks like a ddk game?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 , . 8 . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w6: is unusual but i might play that depends on my mood.
:b7: is ddk ish
:w8: is sdk ish
:b9: is tdk ish
:w10: is qdk ish edit: maybe i streach this a liitle but..still it is a bad move.

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:25 pm
by oso
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Original Game:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ah. Sorry. I should have posted all the number of moves from the beginning.
No, this isn't one of my games. It's a game from an e-book I downloaded a long time ago. Can't remember where. All I have is the fuseki. :(

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:48 pm
by daniel_the_smith
Every move after 3 is wrong, some being horribly so.

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:03 pm
by amnal
oso wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Original Game:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ah. Sorry. I should have posted all the number of moves from the beginning.
No, this isn't one of my games. It's a game from an e-book I downloaded a long time ago. Can't remember where. All I have is the fuseki. :(


4: Bad. This invites black C3 or D4, at which point white's stone has become weak and black has made territory - so white's move has forced white to get strong. This kind of underneath shoulder hit is usually bad, for exactly this reason.

5: Bad. If black wants to go this way, D4 is a harsh way to punish white for making a bad shape. C3 is an easy way to take territory.

6: Bad. Black C3 now leaves the D3 stone completely wasted, and white without a base. C3 seems essential for white to make good shape, and leaves black with bad aji if white plays C6.

7: Bad. C3 is a vital poitn for both groups in that corner, and sente for both against the other. It is a vital fuseki point.

8: Bad, because black C3 makes his group strong and makes white's group weak. Although it is an extension from the upper left, it seems to not address white's main problems.

9: Bad. This underneath shoulder hit invites white C9, black D8 and white E8 to seal black in strongly (there are other variations, but submissive). Because the shape is too bad for black, he should rarely want to play this kind of move, just like white D3 was wrong earlier. Black C3 still seems like the vital shape point - it is still important for the safety of two competing groups.

10: Bad. This ignores C3 and C9, both of which are very big shape points. I think C3 is the more important, because then black must crawl and the D9 stone is light.

11: (Assuming this is the intent of the marked stone), bad, because black has two big problems in the bottom left. I think he should solve them, probably with C3 to leave white in bad shape on the bottom.

This is a good example of a lower level opening where something important is overlooked which could give one player an early massive advantage. There is some great stuff to learn from it, if you can understand why both players' moves were bad, but it is a funny opening problem.

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:12 pm
by Numsgil
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Original Game:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I really don't like 10, as it makes 8 badly placed (as has been pointed out), and white's bottom left corner is still a bit precarious. But then black ignores the whole affair to make a big move at the top. I'd consider a play by either player around the 8/9 stones to be urgent for either player (ie: not just big), so I find it weird that both players ignored it. I would be absolutely amazed if this were much above a ~7k game; these are just some really fundamental mistakes. Lone stones in contact like 8/9, off more or less on their own without any other stones nearby are about as clearcut urgent as I can imagine, unless you're trying to be sneaky and sacrifice them, and even then it's suspect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Original Game:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . 4 . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This is the move order I'd make as both players, given the present board. It's honestly a little tricky because both players have oddly placed groups that need attention (a sure sign that something has gone awry earlier in the game). Like I don't like leaving C8 to fend for itself in contact against a stronger group, but I guess at this point black can just treat it lightly, and if white makes moves against it he can get free moves against white's bottom corner group. That is, the stone is not being used effectively, but I don't think that can be helped at this point.

The 3rd stone is placed to create a base for the two white stones. I feel like if you descend as white here you almost have to play 3 here (or one line higher) in order to make the small wall meaningful. Tighter towards the 4-4 stone and you leave your small wall here vulnerable, and white can't afford yet one more weak group to tend to. (plus 4-4 stones can usually fend for themselves, so I don't consider it as urgent as stabilizing the wall).

4 is probably a more stylistic choice than a necessity, but it does form a weak attack against two groups at once, which is always good (which is why I don't like white's approach to the corner initially). The result is a huge running battle that involves something like 6 different groups. The resulting fight will be a horrible mess that will spew stones well into the center of the board, and should favor whichever player has a stronger strategic sense (reading skill doesn't hurt, either) as all the weak groups struggle to stay ahead.

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:22 pm
by Magicwand
Numsgil wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Original Game:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I really don't like 10, as it makes 8 badly placed (as has been pointed out), and white's bottom left corner is still a bit precarious. But then black ignores the whole affair to make a big move at the top. I'd consider a play by either player around the 8/9 stones to be urgent for either player (ie: not just big), so I find it weird that both players ignored it. I would be absolutely amazed if this were much above a ~7k game; these are just some really fundamental mistakes. Lone stones in contact like 8/9, off more or less on their own without any other stones nearby are about as clearcut urgent as I can imagine, unless you're trying to be sneaky and sacrifice them, and even then it's suspect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Original Game:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . 4 . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This is the move order I'd make as both players, given the present board. It's honestly a little tricky because both players have oddly placed groups that need attention (a sure sign that something has gone awry earlier in the game). Like I don't like leaving C8 to fend for itself in contact against a stronger group, but I guess at this point black can just treat it lightly, and if white makes moves against it he can get free moves against white's bottom corner group. That is, the stone is not being used effectively, but I don't think that can be helped at this point.

The 3rd stone is placed to create a base for the two white stones. I feel like if you descend as white here you almost have to play 3 here (or one line higher) in order to make the small wall meaningful. Tighter towards the 4-4 stone and you leave your small wall here vulnerable, and white can't afford yet one more weak group to tend to. (plus 4-4 stones can usually fend for themselves, so I don't consider it as urgent as stabilizing the wall).

4 is probably a more stylistic choice than a necessity, but it does form a weak attack against two groups at once, which is always good (which is why I don't like white's approach to the corner initially). The result is a huge running battle that involves something like 6 different groups. The resulting fight will be a horrible mess that will spew stones well into the center of the board, and should favor whichever player has a stronger strategic sense (reading skill doesn't hurt, either) as all the weak groups struggle to stay ahead.

i didnt read all your comment but... only choice for :w10: is as below IMO.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Original Game:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . 0 4 . . . . . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:49 pm
by Aphelion
The move order isn't part of the problem, its pulled out of my rear end :) That said, I think I tried to make it as reasonable as possible. The very position itself indicates that something weird happened.

As I mentioned before, I think C3 is bigger than C9 because C3 concerns a group, whereas C9 only concerns a lone stone that can be treated light. Strengthening the bottom with C3 also makes P3 looks much better.

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:03 pm
by amnal
Aphelion wrote:The move order isn't part of the problem, its pulled out of my rear end :) That said, I think I tried to make it as reasonable as possible. The very position itself indicates that something weird happened.

As I mentioned before, I think C3 is bigger than C9 because C3 concerns a group, whereas C9 only concerns a lone stone that can be treated light. Strengthening the bottom with C3 also makes P3 looks much better.


The comments are on the move order that oso has given from the game source - which, to be honest, are even stranger (and worse ;) ) than your suggestions :D

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:19 pm
by Aphelion
Oops, I just saw it. Wow. I feel like I've been transported to bizarro world. Oso, could you possibly upload the ebook (if its not against copyright) or at least give us the title and author? I have a feeling it might not be the best education material...

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:23 pm
by Dusk Eagle
Close enough...

Image

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:21 pm
by Numsgil
Magicwand wrote:
Numsgil wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Original Game:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I really don't like 10, as it makes 8 badly placed (as has been pointed out), and white's bottom left corner is still a bit precarious. But then black ignores the whole affair to make a big move at the top. I'd consider a play by either player around the 8/9 stones to be urgent for either player (ie: not just big), so I find it weird that both players ignored it. I would be absolutely amazed if this were much above a ~7k game; these are just some really fundamental mistakes. Lone stones in contact like 8/9, off more or less on their own without any other stones nearby are about as clearcut urgent as I can imagine, unless you're trying to be sneaky and sacrifice them, and even then it's suspect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Original Game:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . 1 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O . . . . . 4 . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



This is the move order I'd make as both players, given the present board. It's honestly a little tricky because both players have oddly placed groups that need attention (a sure sign that something has gone awry earlier in the game). Like I don't like leaving C8 to fend for itself in contact against a stronger group, but I guess at this point black can just treat it lightly, and if white makes moves against it he can get free moves against white's bottom corner group. That is, the stone is not being used effectively, but I don't think that can be helped at this point.

The 3rd stone is placed to create a base for the two white stones. I feel like if you descend as white here you almost have to play 3 here (or one line higher) in order to make the small wall meaningful. Tighter towards the 4-4 stone and you leave your small wall here vulnerable, and white can't afford yet one more weak group to tend to. (plus 4-4 stones can usually fend for themselves, so I don't consider it as urgent as stabilizing the wall).

4 is probably a more stylistic choice than a necessity, but it does form a weak attack against two groups at once, which is always good (which is why I don't like white's approach to the corner initially). The result is a huge running battle that involves something like 6 different groups. The resulting fight will be a horrible mess that will spew stones well into the center of the board, and should favor whichever player has a stronger strategic sense (reading skill doesn't hurt, either) as all the weak groups struggle to stay ahead.

i didnt read all your comment but... only choice for :w10: is as below IMO.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Original Game:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . 0 4 . . . . . . . . . C . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Yeah, that's rather urgent, too. It makes a good bit of sense, too, since you make the white corner group strong in addition to weakening black's group. So actually, thinking about it again, it makes more sense to do 10 (or 12) here and sacrifice the lone white stone at 8.

But if we assume from the 8/9 exchange that both players are fine with the health of their corner, having played 8, white should respond after black 9. It's not even a matter of reading; it's just "basic instinct". If you get touched you respond. By the time we get to move 10 we have too many fires to put out, so the whole problem is a bit sour, but it's so easy to fix the 8/9 exchange mistake that I wanted to specifically point it out.

This is actually an interesting problem just because there are so many mistakes that it's easy to get overwhelmed and hard to structure constructive thoughts about it. Every move that fixes one problem leaves another gaping hole elsewhere. You have to identify several areas of weakness and apply triage to figure out which is the most important.

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:13 pm
by Aphelion
Its even more basic instinct that White 6 should be at c3. This why this problem is so counter intuitive, this should never happen in a real game.

Also, you can think of :w8: as a shoulder hit, so its still acceptable :).

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:18 pm
by topazg
Aphelion wrote:Its even more basic instinct that White 6 should be at c3. This why this problem is so counter intuitive, this should never happen in a real game.

Also, you can think of :w8: as a shoulder hit, so its still acceptable :).


And of course, it's unacceptable that Black ignored it, so White should C10 :D

It's a cruel problem when two fundamental must play basic instinct moves are screaming on the board at the same time. I'm beginning to prefer C3 too I think. I still think White's two stones can be seriously attacked in the top left and cut completely apart, but I also think White can't afford Black to wedge the bottom now he's approached the lower right. It's an all round disaster for White whichever way you look at it I think. Black too :P

Re: Fuseki Problem

Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:27 pm
by Aphelion
Topazg:

If it makes you feel better, you can think of it like in this joseki where White can tenuki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . 3 . . . . .
$$ | . . 1 . . 2 . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . ,[/go]


Its a bit of a stretch, but you could call it a very poorly timed reduction :lol:. I don't see the danger you are talking about on the top though, as far as I can see White should easily get sente to fix it.