Life In 19x19

Dusk Eagle wrote:

Hazushi wrote:I never cared much for the 3-3 invasion mostly because it fells like a cheap way to get territory, So I rarely play it.

What do you mean by cheap? You feel it gives you an unfair advantage sometimes? Why wouldn't you play it then?

Cheap was probably the wrong term.
Im more in dislike of the influence or the outer wall that is gotten by the other player that is one of the reasons why I don't play in the corner and that im shut in the corner. That wall when bearing down the right direction is frightfully intimidating I will gladely give up the corner at times for the wall because I can use it quite efficiently. But I am not great at dealing with the wall when faced against it. When I have supporting stones around ahead of time to combat the outerwall I may play in the corner. As for when my opponent plays in the corner even though I get the outer influence it seems a little cheap that in most cases my opponent gets to live in the corner unless I am able to start a ko fight that I can win or they make a mistake.

To add to this very meaningful discussion, here is my take:

I very seldom, if ever, start my game with any of the moves marked '1' in the below diagram.
I think '1's are for quitters!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 1 1 1 1 . 1 . 1 1 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 1 1 1 . . 1 . 1 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 1 1 1 . . 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I very seldom, if ever, answer the move 1 with any of the moves marked 2 in the diagram below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 2 2 2 2 2 . 2 2 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 2 2 2 2 . 2 2 . 2 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 2 2 2 2 2 1 2 2 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 2 2 . . . 2 . 2 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 2 2 2 2 . 2 2 2 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 2 2 2 2 . 2 2 2 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But I'm just weird, so don't try it at home.

The wide approach... apparently. viewtopic.php?p=69449#p69449 =D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I've never liked B4 as either player...I feel like no matter which side I'm on it's a bad result...

I have never used opening plays other than 33, 34, or 44, but that's probably pretty common. Let's see...

I rarely consider any pincer other than the 1 space low, especially when working from a 44 point. After the 33 corner invasion, you either have a weak shape or you give up sente to defend. Bleh.

I've heard in a couple places that kgs players use the high approach to 34 much more often than you would see on other servers. Don't know whether that's true, but have been making a point of using the low approach more often since I heard it.

One interesting one which kind of fits with this thread: I almost never tenuki before a corner situation is 'settled' (whether it's by finishing a joseki, or coming to an nonjoseki even result, or concluding that a nonjoseki result is utterly hopeless).

So, for example, I would very rarely ignore an approach move, or do that high approach * attach * hane * draw back * tenuki thing that you see fairly often (sorry, I don't know how to do diagrams). Pros do that kind of thing all the time, and I wonder if a reluctance to do it is one of the lesser known dangers of studying joseki.

Mef wrote:

$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I've never liked B4 as either player...I feel like no matter which side I'm on it's a bad result...

I have the impression many of those who excessively play it do play it because it is fancy and they speculate on your mistakes, not because they like the result. For fun I like to make a fashion statement myself (when the ladder works) by answering with

Mef wrote:

$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I've never liked B4 as either player...I feel like no matter which side I'm on it's a bad result...

I have seen this move before and completely symphatize with you disliking it, for the following reason:

I tend to see the game as a conversation (or let's say a discussion). This move feels like manipulating the discussion in an ugly way. For example cursing at your opponent in a language he doesn't understand with the hope that he will misinterpret it and say something stupid which you can exploit later during the discussion.

It may or may not be joseki, it can even be the best innovation ever, I don't care. As long as I don't understand it and have the feeling that my opponent does not understand it either, I feel bad about it.
But maybe it's only me not understanding this move

entropi wrote:

Mef wrote:

$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

I've never liked B4 as either player...I feel like no matter which side I'm on it's a bad result...

I have seen this move before and completely symphatize with you disliking it, for the following reason:

I tend to see the game as a conversation (or let's say a discussion). This move feels like manipulating the discussion in an ugly way. For example cursing at your opponent in a language he doesn't understand with the hope that he will misinterpret it and say something stupid which you can exploit later during the discussion.

It may or may not be joseki, it can even be the best innovation ever, I don't care. As long as I don't understand it and have the feeling that my opponent does not understand it either, I feel bad about it.
But maybe it's only me not understanding this move

I actually play B4 pretty often in games. To me, it doesn't feel like "manipulating the discussion in an ugly way" so much as saying, "Hey, I want to start fighting now. I don't want to wait. Let's get going!".

Kirby wrote:I actually play B4 pretty often in games. To me, it doesn't feel like "manipulating the discussion in an ugly way" so much as saying, "Hey, I want to start fighting now. I don't want to wait. Let's get going!".

Well, I have nothing against fighting, in fact I enjoy fighting games much more than peaceful land grabbing games. But this move (and some others as well) feels so unnatural that I cannot help thinking of it as a manipulation of discussion.

I would play such kind of a move (or a strange looking invasion, strange attacks, etc) in a game where I am way behind, in order to complicate the game. But playing a move that I dont understand right from the start... I don't know, it's not my understanding of the game.

But again, maybe it's just me who doesn't understand it

entropi wrote:...
I would play such kind of a move (or a strange looking invasion, strange attacks, etc) in a game where I am way behind, in order to complicate the game. But playing a move that I dont understand right from the start... I don't know, it's not my understanding of the game.

But again, maybe it's just me who doesn't understand it

One way to try to understand it is to think of sequences that might arise from it.

Here are some examples:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 . 3 . . . |
$$ 0 . 6 4 1 9 . . . . |
$$ , . 7 5 . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Above, black has made some territory on the top, and has stones on the right side. White might take the 3-3 point, but other than that doesn't have much presence in the area.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 6 7 3 . . . |
$$ . . 0 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . 8 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Above, white captures a single stone, but black gets good central influence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 8 . 3 . . . |
$$ . . 6 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . 5 7 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Above, white's shape is awkward, and black again has presence on both the top and the right.

Of course, there are tons of possibilities. But I cannot say that I feel that black is necessarily bad in them, given the correct board position.

Kirby wrote:

$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 6 7 3 . . . |
$$ . . 0 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . 8 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . 9 . . . . . |
$$ . . . 5 6 7 3 . . . |
$$ . . 0 4 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . 8 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

This looks pretty bad for White. White can improve however by playing an atari at B4 instead of firmly capturing instantly. Provided the ladders work for White,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ . . 6 1 2 5 O . . . |
$$ . 8 3 X O . . . . . |
$$ , . . 4 . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ -------------------+
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 5 1 2 8 O . . . |
$$ . 9 4 X O 6 . . . . |
$$ , . . 3 7 . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . , . . . |[/go]