My Fuseki

Talk about improving your game, resources you like, games you played, etc.
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EdLee
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Post by EdLee »

ParadoxGo wrote:Oh yeah, I'm almost positive it's my mistakes and not the fuseki.
But I need to figure out how to work this fuseki better if I want to not make the mistakes I'm making.
Yes, it is in your basics. For example, :b9: in game 1 at R3 (3-3) instead.
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Re:

Post by jts »

EdLee wrote:
ParadoxGo wrote:Oh yeah, I'm almost positive it's my mistakes and not the fuseki.
But I need to figure out how to work this fuseki better if I want to not make the mistakes I'm making.
Yes, it is in your basics. For example, :b9: in game 1 at R3 (3-3) instead.

Maybe this is semantics, but attaching underneath isn't really a fundamental or a basic concept. Something like :w44: is a fundamental error: saving a worthless stone. (And then to be sporting, B plays :b47: ...?) :b9: is a shape concept that an 8k should become familiar with, and that looks silly to people who play out a related joseki in every other game.

The principle here that is worth treating as basic is that a little bit of corner access (i.e., the difference between q-3 and r-3) can mean a huge amount in terms of points and the strength or weakness of each group. Once you accept that principle, it's obvious that playing q3 is a big loss if you could have gotten away with r3; and you'll learn that r3 is often sound in this sort of corner situation by reading and playing it out.

1st game: Hard to say there's anything wrong with your fuseki specifically. To me it looks like your fuseki instincts are developing as they should be, but you have trouble following through in fighting. At move 15, the fight looks promising for you; at 22, it looks like you've given up a huge amount. But I think that was your reading of the brawl, not your grasp of the fuseki.

2nd game: You don't seem to be thinking of your fuseki moves in terms of threats and follow-ups, or in terms of longer term aims for the middle game. For example, I'm not sure if I would play :b9:, but if I did, I would only play it with a plan for how to attack those to stones if W ignored. Take the corner profit in sente? Or play r7 and seal white in the corner? But nonetheless, middle game types of mistakes were a bigger problem.

3rd game: :b7: defies a pretty basic principle - don't ignore contact moves. (This diagonal approach doesn't actually touch your stone, but W can follow up by starting a contact fight, and he'll be one move ahead.) Then you do it again with :b21: . I would say things look a bit tough for black at :b45:, so in this game we can say that your troubles might have started in the opening, but I don't think the gap you needed to overcome means much compared to the cost of, say, playing out a broken ladder.
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Re: Re:

Post by judicata »

jts wrote:
EdLee wrote:Yes, it is in your basics. For example, :b9: in game 1 at R3 (3-3) instead.
Maybe this is semantics, but attaching underneath isn't really a fundamental or a basic concept.

I think EdLee's comment is pretty basic. I wouldn't say attaching underneath is the "only move," necessarily, but playing R3 instead of Q3 is a basic concept.
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Re: My Fuseki

Post by Dusk Eagle »

In the first game, you'd be so much better off if you had saved your one stone at move :b21:. Notice how after that, white's three stones would be completely surrounded by black with very little room to make life. Even if they did manage to survive, it would be at the cost of giving black huge outside influence.
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Re: Re:

Post by jts »

judicata wrote:
jts wrote:
EdLee wrote:Yes, it is in your basics. For example, :b9: in game 1 at R3 (3-3) instead.
Maybe this is semantics, but attaching underneath isn't really a fundamental or a basic concept.

I think EdLee's comment is pretty basic. I wouldn't say attaching underneath is the "only move," necessarily, but playing R3 instead of Q3 is a basic concept.

I don't think it makes sense to call it a basic concept because elsewhere on the board the attachment under, while usually possible, is often incorrect (either in terms of points or implications for fighting). Unless we are using "basic" to mean "something that an 8k can learn", in which case, sure.

More generally, if you have to use coordinates to state your "basic concept", it probably isn't that basic, imho. I might make an exception for some rule about making eyes in the corner (since 6 stones to live in the corner, 8 stones to live against the side, and 10 to live in the center really is a basic concept).
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Re: My Fuseki

Post by snorri »

This is a good opening for you if your opponents keep playing moves like :w6: in your third example. :)

However, in this case, I would not treat the upper right and lower right corners as miai so rigidly, and would prefer to block at 'a' rather than play :b7: as in the game. Is there a reason you rejected that play?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 7 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Just curious, but what is your planned response if white simply makes a sanrensei with :w6:?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I also propose another move for white that you might need to prepare for:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And here:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And here:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Finally:


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c6
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . 6 . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That should keep you busy for a bit. Good luck!
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Re: My Fuseki

Post by snorri »

ParadoxGo wrote:Plus, white never approaches the bottom right, because that's too dangerous.


Or so your opponents to date think. This is why it is so hard to develop your own opening. If you can't test it against stronger players, it just becomes a matter of a bag tricks against players of your own level. OTOH, if you do test it against stronger players, you may find that tactical mistakes overwhelm what you are trying to understand about the opening.

When I was about your level, I tried out this opening. The position of :b5: may seem odd, but is designed to provide certain advantages in ladder breaking variations that no one wound up playing against me anyway.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . 3 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I also did not win much with it, but it is not so much because white found a killer refutation so much as that I never spent the required amount of games and analysis by stronger players to develop it. Also, as EdLee mentions, most games at this level are simply not decided at this point anyway, so it's very hard to draw conclusions from the few bits of data associated with win/loss records. Much later I discovered that there were some high dans on Tygem that played this way. I felt vindicated, but still did not continue to use this. It was hard to find professional examples to compare to my own games, so I concluded that the well-beaten path held more promise than the path not taken. I could be completely and utterly wrong and there are days I regret not going further down this rabbit hole.
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Re: My Fuseki

Post by ParadoxGo »

Thanks for all the responses everybody! Wow. There was a lot of helpful information posted.

I do think a major issue of mine is misreading fights and situations. I can usually set myself up pretty well, but then fail during the actual battle.

As far as variations for white's response to this, I think I will need to think of different responses to different approaches. I was using my miai too rigidly, as I can see now.
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Post by EdLee »

ParadoxGo wrote:I do think a major issue of mine is misreading fights and situations.
Yes. It's in your basics.
ParadoxGo wrote:I can usually set myself up pretty well, but then fail during the actual battle.
Exactly. This is why your first 3 opening moves (or even the first 10 or 20) don't matter so much,
unless you make some bad moves (like opening at 1-1, or 2nd line too early, etc.),
or like :b9: in game 1 -- it's mostly in your basics. :)
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Re:

Post by ParadoxGo »

EdLee wrote:
ParadoxGo wrote:I do think a major issue of mine is misreading fights and situations.
Yes. It's in your basics.
ParadoxGo wrote:I can usually set myself up pretty well, but then fail during the actual battle.
Exactly. This is why your first 3 opening moves (or even the first 10 or 20) don't matter so much,
unless you make some bad moves (like opening at 1-1, or 2nd line too early, etc.),
or like :b9: in game 1 -- it's mostly in your basics. :)


What do you suggest I do? I read Sensei's Library quite often and practice on Go Problems all the time. But I continue to mess up basics like the ones in my game.
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Re: My Fuseki

Post by SmoothOper »

EdLee wrote:
ParadoxGo wrote:I do think a major issue of mine is misreading fights and situations.
Yes. It's in your basics.
ParadoxGo wrote:I can usually set myself up pretty well, but then fail during the actual battle.
Exactly. This is why your first 3 opening moves (or even the first 10 or 20) don't matter so much,
unless you make some bad moves (like opening at 1-1, or 2nd line too early, etc.),
or like :b9: in game 1 -- it's mostly in your basics. :)


It's par for the course you will get a lot of non sense approach moves that aren't in the book for while, until you figure out how to punish them, at which point you will learn about whole new sets of problems. I'm curious what is the strategy, build 3-4 5-4 shimaris or moyos? I would think mini-Chinese formations from the 3-4 would interesting.
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Re: My Fuseki

Post by jts »

Well, one thing to think about is time use. In the first and third game you're using about 6 seconds per move, in the second, what, 12-15 seconds per move? Some people swear by blitz, but I would say (i) choose time limits appropriate to your playing speed to improve your focus, and (ii) experiment with playing more slowly. Personally, I can't imagine how I would improve if I didn't think about my moves before I played them.

Take game 1, :b21: - this seems pretty bad to me, abandoning cutting stones in a way that also strands two other stones in a valuable area. Should you always save your cutting stones? No, definitely not. Is it possible that n4 leads to disaster? Sure - I've only read out a couple lines. Should you play :b17: and then immediately abandon it? Definitely not; this seems inconsistent. :b45: seems slightly slow. It seems that you might be unaware that these sorts of endgame moves are more meaningful when they threaten a weak group's base, which is a basic concept, but probably I'm reading too much into it... you only took three seconds on the move. :w46: is an interesting defensive move that doesn't actually threaten to do anything. But again, you connect in three seconds.

Do you see what I mean? It's hard for me to assess what your various moves mean if they were mostly played reflexively. If you took two minutes to think before connecting with :b47:, I would say, "Aha, there is some basic concept here about when to save stones that Paradox is missing - if only we can figure out what that is, he'll make huge strides!"
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Re: My Fuseki

Post by ParadoxGo »

jts wrote:Well, one thing to think about is time use. In the first and third game you're using about 6 seconds per move, in the second, what, 12-15 seconds per move? Some people swear by blitz, but I would say (i) choose time limits appropriate to your playing speed to improve your focus, and (ii) experiment with playing more slowly. Personally, I can't imagine how I would improve if I didn't think about my moves before I played them.

Take game 1, :b21: - this seems pretty bad to me, abandoning cutting stones in a way that also strands two other stones in a valuable area. Should you always save your cutting stones? No, definitely not. Is it possible that n4 leads to disaster? Sure - I've only read out a couple lines. Should you play :b17: and then immediately abandon it? Definitely not; this seems inconsistent. :b45: seems slightly slow. It seems that you might be unaware that these sorts of endgame moves are more meaningful when they threaten a weak group's base, which is a basic concept, but probably I'm reading too much into it... you only took three seconds on the move. :w46: is an interesting defensive move that doesn't actually threaten to do anything. But again, you connect in three seconds.

Do you see what I mean? It's hard for me to assess what your various moves mean if they were mostly played reflexively. If you took two minutes to think before connecting with :b47:, I would say, "Aha, there is some basic concept here about when to save stones that Paradox is missing - if only we can figure out what that is, he'll make huge strides!"


It's weird, because looking at the game now, I can clearly see why :b47: was a bad move. I don't know why I played it. Maybe it is me playing too fast. I actually hate blitz. I only play 15 min + games. But I still end up playing fast I guess.
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Re: My Fuseki

Post by ParadoxGo »

SmoothOper wrote:
EdLee wrote:
ParadoxGo wrote:I do think a major issue of mine is misreading fights and situations.
Yes. It's in your basics.
ParadoxGo wrote:I can usually set myself up pretty well, but then fail during the actual battle.
Exactly. This is why your first 3 opening moves (or even the first 10 or 20) don't matter so much,
unless you make some bad moves (like opening at 1-1, or 2nd line too early, etc.),
or like :b9: in game 1 -- it's mostly in your basics. :)


It's par for the course you will get a lot of non sense approach moves that aren't in the book for while, until you figure out how to punish them, at which point you will learn about whole new sets of problems. I'm curious what is the strategy, build 3-4 5-4 shimaris or moyos? I would think mini-Chinese formations from the 3-4 would interesting.


Was this a question for me? I don't completely understand.
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Re: My Fuseki

Post by Loons »

I'm not a fan of saying the first [five] moves don't matter much.

The fuseki seems like playing an extension before a shimari, which is conventionally a mistake.

Of course, more detail is probably in order.

I think the extension (q10) is just a moyo building move, and your two corner stones don't want a moyo yet. The bottom right is free for the taking (no points there) and the top right can be flattened. You say you can make the other shimari, but white has already spent moves spoiling/limiting a moyo on the right, so then spending more moves building a moyo on the right is less good.

I think sanrensei and Chinese are better. What are some reasons for that? I think it's to do with white's options for 6.
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