Life In 19x19

Bantari wrote:Anyways, aren't the admins already protected by the anonymity of KGS nicks?

I think for the majority of admins there is virtually no anonymity. They are all active members of the go community which is, in the grand scheme of things, really quite small (Example - I don't think anyone has trouble figuring out what edlee's name is). Admittedly some do choose to have their admin identity separate from their "go community" identity, but that group is a minority.

Mef wrote:

Bantari wrote:Anyways, aren't the admins already protected by the anonymity of KGS nicks?

I think for the majority of admins there is virtually no anonymity. They are all active members of the go community which is, in the grand scheme of things, really quite small (Example - I don't think anyone has trouble figuring out what edlee's name is). Admittedly some do choose to have their admin identity separate from their "go community" identity, but that group is a minority.

Agree. Still, its the personal choice they make. They certainly do not have to bind their admin nicks to their real-life identity, nor to their 'playing' nick. In either case - this is a moot point since I have already agreed that it is better not to disclose who is it that did the banning.

So, how about the ban duration disclosure? Any comments? Agree, disagree, and why?

quietimes wrote:

mw42 wrote:I got banned for the comment "handicap stones are for women anyway" for the reason "no sexism on KGS." I would like to know who banned me and for how long I am banned. This basic info should at least be provided along with the "reason" for the ban.

Boidhre wrote: know several internet moderators who have gotten death threats, a few openly female ones detailed rape threats usually with as much personal information as possible thrown in to be extra creepy. Several including myself getting detailed threats of physical violence and again I and others have had to deal with abuse and more if we used the username anywhere off the site in question. Boidhre is a "new" username because of this kind of thing happening to me regularly.

I can understand why they want to be anonymous. Or why many/most of the KGS admins/mods have other accounts for playing on.

I'm not sure how A got to B here. I perceived one to be an off-hand comment/attempt at humour in a hyper PC environment and the other to describe people with serious psych issues and perhaps a weak line of defense protecting volunteer admins. To the latter, I believe there is a priority to deal with some deep mental issues (for the person uttering typing such messages) before we come to the table on the issue of humorous or not. I do not believe it to be fair to equate the two.

As for the length of the ban? Why customize or vary it. Standardize it, ie. 1 week. 3 strikes your out. I do support the anonymity of the offense and the player handle. To sensationalize it is to promote it. You do something stupid, your banned. No spectacle, no need to follow up with questions.

Flame on.

They're not equated, and I don't think for a second that the average ban from KGS would be responded to with threats or whatever never mind that mw42 would be capable of it. Really, reread what I said, I'm talking about the fringe cases being problematic enough to merit anonymity in general, especially since it really doesn't matter who banned me, it only matters if I complain and the ban was out of order that the senior admins or wms can see who gave it out and correct the ban and have a word with the admin in question.

This requires trust that the latter happens of course, which may me lacking in some people.

I see no reason to publicly inform of every ban with only "Motive" and the "Details of the ban" including duration and effects of the ban (like no talking, no playing or simply no entering the server).

I also see no reason to publish less information than that.

Obviously, if all bans have the same effects (forbidden entrance) or the same duration, I'd see no need to specify it every time.


About the identification of the admin. I really don't see the point of it, as long as a system to appeal is in place. Either the ban is just or it isn't; the admin is only the fist person who judged it. If the banned doesn't consider the ban to be just he can appeal. There's is no advantage in knowing the original admin.

Bantari wrote:

DrStraw wrote:I was more curious as to why that deserved a ban in the first place. I would never have banned anyone for it when I was a KGS senior admin.

You banned people for much less, dude.

Exactly, by banning people for much less, they never would have gotten to that.

But I agree with others that it's reasonable to give out the duration of the ban, even if it's just "For the foreseeable future."

From a pragmatic point of view, it just cuts down on the amount of emailing/interaction the admins have to do with each offender. I think this is a far better outcome than a bit of extra salt in the wound.

Kirby wrote:Who did the ban should be very easily known to other admins. It may not be best in all cases to disclose to the user that got banned, but admin actions should be easily known by other admins.

Admins are people and don't always make good decisions, so there should be *some* form of accountability.

I'd bet admins already can see who banned who. I'd doubt that it's ever used to keep admins accountable since admins tend to agree with one another, but it's good if actions aren't anonymous to everybody.

There is an admin log, visible to all admins. And we discuss the actions of other admins amongst ourselves to keep accountability. Some actions do get overturned during that process.

shapenaji wrote:

Bantari wrote:

DrStraw wrote:I was more curious as to why that deserved a ban in the first place. I would never have banned anyone for it when I was a KGS senior admin.

You banned people for much less, dude.

Exactly, by banning people for much less, they never would have gotten to that.

Once you ban everybody, the server becomes peaceful and tranquil, right?

But seriously - I don't really care where or for what or how KGS admins ban at the moment.
What I am arguing for here is that when a ban does happen, at least these two things should be made clear to the offender:

• what exactly is he punished for (I think this already does happen), and
• what exactly is his punishment (which certainly involves the duration of the ban)

IMHO, it is better to think of banning, not in terms of crime and punishment, but in terms of preserving a certain decorum, a certain atmosphere. If you are a host and a guest is spoiling the party for other guests, you ask him or her to leave. If you are a guest and the host asks you to leave, you do. There is no trial or question about whether the punishment fits the crime.

That said, I do not see the point of indefinite bans. How do they help preserve decorum? They increase the frustration of the person who is banned, but what good does that do? It may even be counterproductive.

Reason and duration seem good.

The actual admin probably should not be disclosed for reasons already stated.

I am fortunate never to have been banned on a go server, but likely that is because I just play or watch without kibitzing. What are the most common reasons for banning?

1) From what I know the duration of the ban is omitted on purpose, to make the whole thing more annoying to the banned person. I won't cite sources, sorry.

2) Again from what I know, admins may be able to see which other admins banned whom, but will usually not speak up against other admins or to wms. Admins considered "nice admins" will also omit that topic when users ask them about "nasty admins" (not based on personal experience, but from what a nice person on KGS told me when attempting to bring this up). Last but not least, wms will ignore this topic too if it is brought to his attention (but he is a nice guy in general, it's simply that he ignores most topics by default, like a stone buddha).

3) An admin who needs to prevent revealing to a user that he/she is the one responsible for a specific ban is not cut out for a professional admin job, but I guess it works acceptably well for one or two "special" KGS admins (along the large number of decent KGS admins) who are actually hated by a lot of people for reasons.

4) mw42, if you want a shot at finding out who banned you, you should review the specific game in which you made that sexist remark and check the comments written in it as some admins will participate in commenting or write something along the lines "good game, thanks both players" in the end.

5) Handicap stones are for women, and also for men, if the strength between the players differs. :-p

C. Blue wrote:
3) An admin who needs to prevent revealing to a user that he/she is the one responsible for a specific ban is not cut out for a professional admin job

Firstly admin jobs aren't professional, they are volunteers. Also as was already noted in the thread, harassment and stalking is a serious issue. Other than that I agree with most of what you say.

snorri wrote: What are the most common reasons for banning?

#1 far and away is abuse directed toward an another user (usually making abusive remarks toward an opponent, or harassing another user via PM).

Distant second is inappropriate comments (swearing/sexual innuendo/etc) - though honestly this is a bit hazy, because often people are banned for "swearing" when that swearing was also a form of abuse directed at a single user.

If you want to lump inappropriate usernames in with inappropriate comments, then those reasons above account for about 2/3 of all bans.

After that you have a potpourri of other little reasons (Flooding, "Trolling", Refusing to properly score a game, etc).

Mef wrote:...
After that you have a potpourri of other little reasons (Flooding, "Trolling", Refusing to properly score a game, etc).

Don't forget about "non-game related" kibitz when an admin tells you to focus on the game.

Bantari wrote:But seriously - I don't really care where or for what or how KGS admins ban at the moment.
What I am arguing for here is that when a ban does happen, at least these two things should be made clear to the offender:

• what exactly is he punished for (I think this already does happen), and
• what exactly is his punishment (which certainly involves the duration of the ban)

Any person who feels that he or she has been banned without cause can write to admin@gokgs.com and the matter will be investigated. In most cases, the exact wording will be provided to the complainant (provided that he or she was the person banned, not a third party -- note that some exceptions are made for parents of children who were banned).

KGS policy is not to identify the length of the ban period, so this information is not provided.

BigDoug wrote:KGS policy is not to identify the length of the ban period, so this information is not provided.

I would have to agree with others that the main purpose of a ban is to improve a situation for KGS and it's users. The banned person is also one of the users, and in most cases, one who we expect will return to enjoy the server. It would seem to me that by not informing him or her of the extent of the punishment, KGS is adding an element of cruelty to the already irksome situation of not being allowed to play. By so doing, KGS runs the risk of creating animosity where there may have been none before. What is the advantage to this policy?