Who banned me? For how long?

[mw42]

I got banned for the comment "handicap stones are for women anyway" for the reason "no sexism on KGS." I would like to know who banned me and for how long I am banned. This basic info should at least be provided along with the "reason" for the ban.

[Bantari]

I got banned for the comment "handicap stones are for women anyway" for the reason "no sexism on KGS." I would like to know who banned me and for how long I am banned. This basic info should at least be provided along with the "reason" for the ban.

I 100% agree - this info *should* be provided. At least - what for and for how long, so there is no misunderstanding.

On a related issue: what made you say something so incredibly dumb? Though that was 'funny'? Just curious...

[Javaness2]

I don't think there is any reason to give this information. If you believe that handicap stones are for women, then you can contact the admin mailbox to explain why.

[mw42]

I don't think there is any reason to give this information.

Explain why, please.

If you believe that handicap stones are for women, then you can contact the admin mailbox to explain why.

This is really pathetic.

[Bantari]

I don't think there is any reason to give this information. If you believe that handicap stones are for women, then you can contact the admin mailbox to explain why.

Let me get this straight:
You don't believe there is any reason to tell a person what he is banned for and for how long?
Or you believe there is no reason to tell people that handicaps are just for women?

Its not really clear from your post.

[Javaness2]

Bantari, I believe there is no reason that you immediately need to know who banned you and for how long. That is current KGS policy, and those who have been banned are unlikely to circumvent that by asking here in the forum. If your ban is incorrect, there is always a point of contact available to help resolve the situation.

Let me illustrate one reason why. Yesterday a player on KGS abused another during a game with something along the lines of "F@&é you ké"' I am going to knife your jçà ass and r"'( your mother". When dealing with such users, admins should not have to fear that they are going to be a target of abuse because of enforcing the Terms of Service: It is an extreme example, but it does apply across the board.

If somebody did something wrong, they get punished. Sorry, but they do not need to know how long that will last - in fact some decisions are changed, so the information given in the primary instance would then be misleading. They do not need to know who punished them. They just need to know that they have broken a rule, an the ban message should allow them to understand what they did wrong.

Obviously there are other opinions on that, and feel free to debate those.

PS: There was also no need to inform people that handicap stones are for women, for one thing, they are not exclusively for women.

[Bantari]

Bantari, I believe there is no reason that you immediately need to know who banned you and for how long. That is current KGS policy, and those who have been banned are unlikely to circumvent that by asking here in the forum. If your ban is incorrect, there is always a point of contact available to help resolve the situation.

Let me illustrate one reason why. Yesterday a player on KGS abused another during a game with something along the lines of "F@&é you ké"' I am going to knife your jçà ass and r"'( your mother". When dealing with such users, admins should not have to fear that they are going to be a target of abuse because of enforcing the Terms of Service: It is an extreme example, but it does apply across the board.

If somebody did something wrong, they get punished. Sorry, but they do not need to know how long that will last - in fact some decisions are changed, so the information given in the primary instance would then be misleading. They do not need to know who punished them. They just need to know that they have broken a rule, an the ban message should allow them to understand what they did wrong.

Obviously there are other opinions on that, and feel free to debate those.

PS: There was also no need to inform people that handicap stones are for women, for one thing, they are not exclusively for women.

Ok, I see your points. Here are mine:

• I don't think admins getting abused should be an issue in either case - although I am also iffy on giving out the info as to "who" banned you. In any case, if the admin acted correctly, and somebody tries to harass them publicly for that - this person just makes a donkey of himself, and the admin is in the clear. So no problem.

• Theoretically, I agree with your notion that the banee 'does not need to know' for how long he is banned. We don't really *need* any of that, including playing Go in general or on KGS in particular. In practice - the punishment is the ban, yes? Keeping the user in the dark, possibly making him keep trying every 15 min if he is already un-banned is unusual, I think, and should not be part of the punishment. Or, if it is intended this way, to twist the knife a little more, why not put it in writing somewhere, so it is all clear and in the open?

• I see your point about the duration of the ban changing as the issue gets re-evaluated, and fully agree and support it. But this can be easily solved by adjusting the popup saying 'you are banned for blah blah, time remaining, blah blah' each time you try to log in. I see no reason not to implement that (other than the trivial 'it does not need to be implemented' you give.)

• In general, in my experience, punishment works the best and generates the least controversy when it is clear and straightforward. Keeping the punished person in the dark as to the aspects of the punishment (such as for what or how long and what exactly *is* the punishment) only leads to trouble and resentment in the long run. I see nothing to gain by keeping the time secret and I cannot think of any scenario when this should be beneficial for the server or for anybody else.

[Boidhre]

Not saying how long a ban for is poor form. I can agree with withholding names.

[Boidhre]

I don't think admins getting abused should be an issue in either case - although I am also iffy on giving out the info as to "who" banned you. In any case, if the admin acted correctly, and somebody tries to harass them publicly for that - this person just makes a donkey of himself, and the admin is in the clear. So no problem.

I know several internet moderators who have gotten death threats, a few openly female ones detailed rape threats usually with as much personal information as possible thrown in to be extra creepy. Several including myself getting detailed threats of physical violence and again I and others have had to deal with abuse and more if we used the username anywhere off the site in question. Boidhre is a "new" username because of this kind of thing happening to me regularly.

I can understand why they want to be anonymous. Or why many/most of the KGS admins/mods have other accounts for playing on.

[uriel]

As much of a pain as it is to be banned, I can't agree more regarding not releasing the admin names WRT a particular case. While it seems like KGS is a pretty friendly place, releasing the overseeing admin can only aggravate the situation. What good would it do to know who banned you? At best you'll just know who to blame, at worst (and I'm not directing this toward anyone in particular) that opens the door to admin harassment.

[DrStraw]

I was more curious as to why that deserved a ban in the first place. I would never have banned anyone for it when I was a KGS senior admin.

[Kirby]

Who did the ban should be very easily known to other admins. It may not be best in all cases to disclose to the user that got banned, but admin actions should be easily known by other admins.

Admins are people and don't always make good decisions, so there should be *some* form of accountability.

I'd bet admins already can see who banned who. I'd doubt that it's ever used to keep admins accountable since admins tend to agree with one another, but it's good if actions aren't anonymous to everybody.

[Bantari]

I was more curious as to why that deserved a ban in the first place. I would never have banned anyone for it when I was a KGS senior admin.

You banned people for much less, dude.

[Bantari]

Alright, as I said - I was iffy about the 'who' of banning. Pretty sure now it is best to keep secret, at least from the public. Anyways, aren't the admins already protected by the anonymity of KGS nicks?

However - my main point was about the duration. Nobody talking about that? What are the reasons for this being secret?

[quietimes]

I got banned for the comment "handicap stones are for women anyway" for the reason "no sexism on KGS." I would like to know who banned me and for how long I am banned. This basic info should at least be provided along with the "reason" for the ban.

know several internet moderators who have gotten death threats, a few openly female ones detailed rape threats usually with as much personal information as possible thrown in to be extra creepy. Several including myself getting detailed threats of physical violence and again I and others have had to deal with abuse and more if we used the username anywhere off the site in question. Boidhre is a "new" username because of this kind of thing happening to me regularly.

I can understand why they want to be anonymous. Or why many/most of the KGS admins/mods have other accounts for playing on.

I'm not sure how A got to B here. I perceived one to be an off-hand comment/attempt at humour in a hyper PC environment and the other to describe people with serious psych issues and perhaps a weak line of defense protecting volunteer admins. To the latter, I believe there is a priority to deal with some deep mental issues (for the person uttering typing such messages) before we come to the table on the issue of humorous or not. I do not believe it to be fair to equate the two.

As for the length of the ban? Why customize or vary it. Standardize it, ie. 1 week. 3 strikes your out. I do support the anonymity of the offense and the player handle. To sensationalize it is to promote it. You do something stupid, your banned. No spectacle, no need to follow up with questions.

Flame on.