Starcraft II

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Solomon
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Solomon »

topazg wrote:
Araban wrote:Ugh, if it's one thing the Go is far, far superior in over SC2, it's the general manner level of players. Seriously, on KGS it's considered BM to not type "thx" or "hi", and the worst I've ever been called online on a Go server was "idiot". But in SC2 it can get pretty nasty (and I'll refrain from typing out some of the things I've seen here).


This is the primary reason I've not bought the game actually. Even LiquidTLO I felt was annoying and immature despite his skill, and I have little desire to compete against people who either enjoy rubbing other people's noses in it, have some kind of crazed nerd rage when they lose, or are otherwise just rude and offensive. I know gamers have a reputation for being stuck-in-the-bedroom loners without particularly good social skills (no offense guys, I have long counted myself amongst them), but that still doesn't excuse being just blatantly rude. I want to enjoy what I do in the little spare time I have, and if it involves other people I would rather not have to deal with gratuitous insults.

It does happen sometimes in Go, I was playing on kurnik the other day, and played a 1550 rated player who had snuck 9 handicap stones under the radar, with free placement. He made a large corner shimari in all 4 corners and played tengen, and obviously thought it would be an amusingly easy victory. I got lucky a couple of times, and by 2/3 the way through the game, had taken the lead. He immediately started f-ing and c-ing at me, and after another couple of minutes just escaped. If more people were like that, I'd stop playing, but thankfully most of the Go community are a really nice bunch. I have yet to get that feeling from the TL forums or YT video broadcasts on SC2.

Yeah, it was like a 5d player playing SDK players even, with a commentator not just criticizing, but mocking the kyu players' play in front of thousands of kibitzers. I wasn't really that irked against TLO, but the commentator (I think it was Chill) for this reason.

And actually, while I did rant a bit on the general immaturity level of the SC2 players I've bumped into, I think it's much more civil than, say, CoD or Halo 3 online (links contain over 9000 expletives), so I guess it's all relative :P.

Tooveli wrote:I've bumped into very little bad bm (though I get gg around half the time). In fact I've encountered very little serious cheese. I've yet to be six-pooled or cannon rushed (100+ games). I've played against lots of more normal cheese stuff (proxy rax, all-ins, most PvP) but I quite like it. Cheese strategies seem like legitimate attempts to win games to me. They also seem to be generally weaker than standard play and I enjoy fending them off. It's a lot easier to beat cheese in Starcraft than read out the correct answer to a joseki trick play in go.

The funniest game I've played:
PvT on Desert Oasis. My opponent sent out his first scv to build a proxy rax. I scouted with my 9 pylon probe and it just so happened that he was building the rax directly on my scouting path. I attacked the building scv with my probe and killed it. Meanwhile, he'd put down an engineering bay and a gas and (I think he was intending to do this anyway) started flying his cc over to my base to morph into a planetary fortress. It landed in my base and just sat there. I was a little confused. Checking the replay - he'd started to fly it over about 20 gas too short to actually make the planetary fortress. He proceeded to lift off and fly to a corner of the map and make me come kill him.

How...what...100+ games and no 6-pool or cannon rushes? I think that's like driving 120mph on highways from Seattle to New York and not getting a ticket :). I got cannon rushed a lot when I was in platinum, but looking back I think it's done a lot of good for me considering how easily I've dismantled and handily won the last few cannon rushing attempts I've had thrown at me. Same with 6-pools, especially when someone tries to do it on Desert Oasis :lol:.

And oh, replay for that funniest game!
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Aphelion »

Well, a lot of the stuff going on with the perceived BM from TL veterans is really meant as an inside joke kind of thing, where they try to "out troll" each other. I think this started around 2007 and got worse from there. I don't like it very much either, but you need to take it in context of a bunch of people who know each other very well and for a very long time behaving in a deliberately facetious manner.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by topazg »

Araban wrote:Yeah, it was like a 5d player playing SDK players even, with a commentator not just criticizing, but mocking the kyu players' play in front of thousands of kibitzers. I wasn't really that irked against TLO, but the commentator (I think it was Chill) for this reason.


Ah, thanks, I had assumed he was commentating himself. Thanks for pointing that out :)
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by fwiffo »

Part of it is that he was in placement matches, which is always a crazy experience. Imagine if, on KGS, until you had played 5 matches and gotten a solid rank, you would get paired up against completely random players and you didn't even get to know their rank until after the match was over. Oh yeah, and most of them were socially retarded 14 year old boys. I mean, getting a rank for the first time on KGS is already a nasty and/or comical experience for everyone involved.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Tooveli »

Araban wrote:How...what...100+ games and no 6-pool or cannon rushes? I think that's like driving 120mph on highways from Seattle to New York and not getting a ticket :). I got cannon rushed a lot when I was in platinum, but looking back I think it's done a lot of good for me considering how easily I've dismantled and handily won the last few cannon rushing attempts I've had thrown at me. Same with 6-pools, especially when someone tries to do it on Desert Oasis :lol:.

And oh, replay for that funniest game!


I don't have the replay, it was a game from my first week of playing. I didn't think to save it. I just wanted to play again asap so that I could have a proper game.

I kind of wish I had been 6pool/canon rushed at least once. I'd like to try and defend against it - sounds like fun to me.

Another game I thought was hilarious:
Metalopolis PvP. We're on opposite sides of the map and I finally scout him just as I throw down my core. He's doing an aggressive 2gate build with zealots coming for me so I cancel the core and make another warpgate and chrono zealots like crazy. By the time he gets to my base with his 4 zealots I have 6 waiting for him and he immediately retreats. I follow him across the map to his base where his 12 zealots now outnumber my 6+2 reinforcements so I retreat and he's hot on my heels. This is getting kind of amusing and I'm scared of dying so I just make more zealots as fast as I can. By the time he gets to me I have about 16 total and outnumber him. I now chase him back to his base. At this point I realise that I should have moved some of my zealots off to the side as he was chasing me across the map and converged for a pincer attack when he got to my base, wiping him out (When I checked the replay I don't think I'd actually have had time to do this). I then become paranoid he's going to do the same to me. I withdraw just before my zealots chase him all the way back to his base. Checking the replay, he had no more forces at all and I would have wiped him out there and then. He was teching to dark templar. I lost the game a couple of minutes later as my core hadn't even finished.

I learnt a valuable lesson not to assume anything about what my opponent is doing. I played pretty badly that game but I did enjoy it. It also got me to start playing on the multitasking trainer map (http://www.sc2mapster.com/maps/multitasking-trainer/) which I highly recommend. I can beat normal with Protoss but want to get to the point where I can beat it 9 times out of 10 before moving to hard.

Re BM:
I've found most people I play to be quite friendly. If I have a fun game with someone I usually say so as I gg. Most of the time it leads to a short friendly conversation or an offer to play more games. Maybe it's self selecting and the fun games tend to be with the more friendly people as they are most likely to want a big macro game.
I got offensively gg'd once. He said it just as I was about to resign - he had won, but still.. I didn't like it. I spent 2 seconds trying to think of a way I could possibly win the game and then gave up and went off to make myself some tea. I came back just as he'd killed my final building. I felt a little bad, but I don't want to just surrender.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Solomon »

Tooveli wrote:Re BM:
I've found most people I play to be quite friendly. If I have a fun game with someone I usually say so as I gg. Most of the time it leads to a short friendly conversation or an offer to play more games. Maybe it's self selecting and the fun games tend to be with the more friendly people as they are most likely to want a big macro game.
I got offensively gg'd once. He said it just as I was about to resign - he had won, but still.. I didn't like it. I spent 2 seconds trying to think of a way I could possibly win the game and then gave up and went off to make myself some tea. I came back just as he'd killed my final building. I felt a little bad, but I don't want to just surrender.

Sigh...maybe it's a Europe thing and I should get an account there :P. I've never had that sort of experience and I'm well into 200 games. I've had at least 10 offensive gg's and I'd say only 30% of my won games have my opponent saying gg. The only time I never say gg in a lost game is when I lose to something like proxy 2 gates or proxy reaper + bunker rush.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by MountainGo »

Tooveli wrote:If I have a fun game with someone I usually say so as I gg. Most of the time it leads to a short friendly conversation or an offer to play more games.
Same here. The key is to start the conversation. If you're friendly and say more than a couple words, usually they will too. Give a little and get a little.

I agree that the "offensive gg" is truly offensive. So far it's the only thing people have said to me that actually annoys me. I just played a game where my opponent said it as five Zealots left his base. And then he won, grrr. But as it became clear I couldn't do anything, I did say gg myself and left the game. You can't let yourself get sucked into their world of harassment.

By the way, I just discovered Sc2gears. It is a little miracle if you like to learn from your replays. It automatically saves them all and names them according to whatever template you provide. And then you can look at lots of useful analyses, like filterable build orders, etc. My favorite feature is the ability to look at a little map and see what buildings were in place at any point in the game.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by fwiffo »

Araban wrote:Regarding the game, it's a PvT where my opponent tries to all-in with late mass marines + SCVs and a handful of marauders. It doesn't work out so well for him...

ROFL, I just now got to look at the replay. It's even sillier than described. It's not even like you were doing anything tricky, or abusing a game mechanic or something. He just suicided all his stuff, SCVs and mules included, against your force which was defending from high ground. Can mules even attack? It's not even like you pulled off some wicked gosu micro or used force-fields or some arguably OP tech like voids or storm. You did blink once, I guess...

I guess he was pissed 'cause you used those back-door rocks earlier to sneak into his base. But even I know to watch that on Blistering Sands, and I'm a complete scrub. I can't believe you run into that crap in Diamond. I mean, I could have beaten that guy.

I think in this case, the "cry more" was richly deserved.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Solomon »

fwiffo wrote:
Araban wrote:Regarding the game, it's a PvT where my opponent tries to all-in with late mass marines + SCVs and a handful of marauders. It doesn't work out so well for him...

ROFL, I just now got to look at the replay. It's even sillier than described. It's not even like you were doing anything tricky, or abusing a game mechanic or something. He just suicided all his stuff, SCVs and mules included, against your force which was defending from high ground. Can mules even attack? It's not even like you pulled off some wicked gosu micro or used force-fields or some arguably OP tech like voids or storm. You did blink once, I guess...

I guess he was pissed 'cause you used those back-door rocks earlier to sneak into his base. But even I know to watch that on Blistering Sands, and I'm a complete scrub. I can't believe you run into that crap in Diamond. I mean, I could have beaten that guy.

I think in this case, the "cry more" was richly deserved.

Nah, mules can't attack...I think he was just in serious rage mode after I took out his CC. He had his entire army on 1 hotkey so it was even easier than expected to bait him to go back and forth between his natural and main while I took out buildings. He did see that I broke into the rocks since he had a depot there, but yeah...bad army management was his problem. And yeah, I did make a lot of mistakes in that game, analyzing it. For instance, I didn't gain control of the towers which could have helped immensely. And letting my mineral balloon too high in the early game while I was probe harassing =/. Ayyyy...
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by flOvermind »

fwiffo wrote:This is the best way to respond to BM (ignore the unrelated voice-over - just watch the video).


LOL

Planetary fortress rush FTW ;)
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Tooveli »

I want to try and improve my macro. Instead of learning build orders, I want to do things the other way round. I'd like some in-game timings for certain builds. For example, instead of following a two-gate robo colossus BO, I'd like to know a good army composition and the earliest time it's possible to get it (eg. 1 colossus 1 observer 1 sentry 2 stalkers 2 zealots at 7 mins - no idea how reasonable that is). Then I could practice until I can emulate this, adding in some scouting worker micro as I see fit. This way I can discover what works for myself and I think it will be more informative.

Does anyone know where I could find such information? Or am I going to have to search through pro replays writing down timings?
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Solomon »

Tooveli wrote:I want to try and improve my macro. Instead of learning build orders, I want to do things the other way round. I'd like some in-game timings for certain builds. For example, instead of following a two-gate robo colossus BO, I'd like to know a good army composition and the earliest time it's possible to get it (eg. 1 colossus 1 observer 1 sentry 2 stalkers 2 zealots at 7 mins - no idea how reasonable that is). Then I could practice until I can emulate this, adding in some scouting worker micro as I see fit. This way I can discover what works for myself and I think it will be more informative.

Does anyone know where I could find such information? Or am I going to have to search through pro replays writing down timings?

Hmm...I think Day[9] covered this kind of topic in his 2nd most recent daily. I think the best thing you can do is to use YABOT's BO tester which not only helps you learn build orders, but also provides information on your timing windows for those builds and a lot of good statistics. Furthermore, the latest version allows you to use the tester in multiplayer mode so that you can test timings against practice partners and take into consideration scouting worker micro, early harass, and so forth. I'll be getting a European account pretty soon so when I do, we can practice on each other :D.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by usagi »

Tooveli wrote:I mentioned some of the good points of terran above, but there are a few things I'm struggling with:


As a zerg player who has experimented with terran (and found it wanting), I feel your pain:

I'd like to be able to switch add-ons between my buildings as and when it suits me.
-- Zerg is better because when we build a tech building we always have access to it without having to "switch" buildings.


2. "I want an early game unit that's fast and good at scouting and can jump up and down cliffs or something."
-- Well, you will.. Reapers are going to be nerfed this month. It's going to take longer to build them. That being said I've never had a problem with reaper strikes as zerg. Then again I usually go two queens and don't expand early.

3. I'd like my high dps army to have some kind of ability to increase its dps by 50% or so in case I'm not already winning (maybe it could make them move faster too).
-- Zerg is better than terrans because Zerg gets free marines. Oh, and the units that spawn them are invisible so they can sneak into your base and make the marines behind all your bunkers.

4. I'd like (though it's a bit silly) if I make a bunker, to be able to get all the minerals back for it if I don't need it any more.[/]
-- Zerg is better than Terran because our bunkers (spinecrawlers and sporecrawlers) cost less money, have higher range, cost less food, and oh yeah, did I mention they can walk around? Oh yeah, and, they heal themselves over time.

[i]5. I'd like an area of effect spell that wipes out the shields on those pesky protoss units (Maybe if it could get rid of the energy on those pesky templar too...)

-- The Zerg has a mind control unit.

6. And finally, sometimes I think it would be really cool if I could just nuke my opponent.
-- Most zerg units can hide underground to escape a nuclear blast. They can also move while underground.

I'll be honest with you. The most difficult thing to handle in TvZ is invisible banshees. 2queen usually solves it. But banshees are a net negative with terran; you also need a raven to detect burrowers, and if I have ONE air unit out they all die. I'd say the game is pretty fair. Then again I'm still in bronze.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by Solomon »

I've been warming up for my L19 tourney match against Kirby tomorrow (10am PST) by playing some actual games of Go recently to help shave off some of my rust. Oddly enough, I seem to relate everything that happens in Go with SC2. It's kind of interesting actually and has made Go just a bit more enjoyable for me. For instance, I was watching a high handi game a while ago where Black played like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 0 . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 9 . . 6 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 5 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Which instantly reminded me of a strategy I ran into a lot in the gold/platinum league (especially on Desert Oasis) where where my opponent plays like this:

Image

Hopefully I'm not the only one who sees the connection :P. Yeah I know, Go and SC2 are very different games (you don't need 200 APM to be 9d for instance), but it's fun to see some of the ways the two games can connect.
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Re: Starcraft II

Post by schilds »

I suppose the protoss, like black, has been playing a passive game and has taken what he thinks is a a big point (teched to void rays) without any consideration to white's plan (we can see he that he hasn't scouted) or how his move can be easily rendered useless by a good player.

Or something like that :p.
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