#157 - hailthorn vs Sur

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hailthorn011
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Captures: :black: :white:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by Sur »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
From :w8: I've been forced to play like this. I don't see any other sequence for me. I am surprised that hailthorn didn't play anything greedy, but he has an excellent opportunity to do so now :-P

He probably studied this opening a lot. I am not familiar with it at all, but I didn't have any opportunity to make a mistake yet.

I think that the game has yet to start, as this is just a learned opening with no side making any mistakes or awesome moves.
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by perceval »

is it really a known fuseki, considered even, so far ? i find the result good for black. maybe the right was joseki but it seems to be well suited to B set up
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by illluck »

@Perceval:
Apparently it is joseki (per eidogo), but it looks better for black to me too. The sequence says black should extend at P7 next, but Q9 looks so tempting to me XD
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by Loons »

I also used to really dislike this fuseki as white, but found I was consistently not making reducing plays around a, which I think can be important.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Also, white becomes thick: So part of the payoff from this joseki will be seen in the upper right, for example.
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Celebrir
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by Celebrir »

@Perceval:
After W played :wc: I know only one option for white which might be thinked about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . 4 . . , . W . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But this doesn't look much better and W's shape looks bad. 'a' would be a good point to help this group but B gets another solid group at the right with this. All other options W has seem to help B even more.
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Uberdude
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by Uberdude »

Celebrir wrote:
After W played :wc: I know only one option for white which might be thinked about:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Variation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . 4 . . , . W . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
But this doesn't look much better and W's shape looks bad. 'a' would be a good point to help this group but B gets another solid group at the right with this. All other options W has seem to help B even more.
I think that's fine for white, and is the old fashion. But my understanding is it fell out of use as rather than playing at 19 black plays severely at 'a', so to avoid that white now usually plays the hanging connection joseki they are playing.

As for white looking small, and black big, you just need to be patient. Don't forget that black has a huge hole at h3 so his territory is not so big. Often black will soon play f5 to fix that and white usually answers at d2 which is a big move too to secure the corner and has large yose continuation at f2 and may even help support an invasion. The invasion at a is supposed to be dead, but it's only just and the killing variation no longer works if white has a stone in the n8 area.

Loon's suggested reduction at m5 would make sense if black has defended at f5. If he hasn't then it seems rather generous as h3 is better. The peep at b is some other aji white has to aim at.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . b . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . a . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
This reminded my of some of my games which I think can illustrate the ideas. The first, http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=96210, has a similar Kobayashi shape but a standard 3-4 joseki in the lower left corner. This became over 70 points of territory but I still won. Be patient and don't be jealous!

The second, http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=76151, features the m3 invasion. l3 should be at m4 to kill. As you can see in that game as white runs out, using the aji of the p5 cut, black's bamboo group in the lower right actually comes under attack as it does not have definite eyespace. One reason white can attack so severely is the white group on the right is very thick so black can't lean on it to get free moves in sente to help his group escape. In fact white could have killed it, can you find his mistake?
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by Marcus »

@perceval, obs
I'm glad Uberdude covered all the details so well.

Some background: hailthorn decided to study this opening only just recently, after I used it playing a game against him on KGS. This was once (and probably still is) one of my favourite openings, and I played with it a lot from 7/6k to about 4k. Like Uberdude said, playing White here can feel a bit taxing, if you aren't familiar with the weak points of black's formation. For this reason, many players try to avoid playing against it.

At this point in time, I really don't mind playing as White against this. There are always interesting options, and it's good practice for White when it comes to keeping track of territory ad finding good ways and good times to reduce and/or invade.

I strongly encourage SDK players to check the opening out and play both with it and against it. There are a lot of lessons to be learned. (I guess that's true of any opening ... but this one is special to me! ;) )
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Uberdude
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by Uberdude »

Depending on my mood I will sometimes play to prevent the Kobayashi opening. But the primary reason is not that I don't like the position for white, but I've played it many times and find it rather boring.
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by hailthorn011 »

Sorry for the delay.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by Sur »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by hailthorn011 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
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Marcus
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by Marcus »

Hidden for brevity, but players are allowed to read this.
This is exactly the first sequence I learned for this opening. Interesting. I had thought that it had fallen out of favour for both Black and White, really, but I guess at our level it doesn't matter.

Another sequence I've seen in the past that I was told is a bit newer starts off like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 5 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
I haven't personally played with this varition, but it looks fun and interesting!
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Uberdude
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by Uberdude »

r11 is not necessarily a good exchange (though pros do sometimes play it), it loses black some more severe attacking options at r10 or s9 which become feasable if white exchanges o17 for r14.
About Marcus's 'newer' sequence, I'd have thought that was an older joseki, and on this board it is good for white as k4 ends up overconcentrated, as in my OGS game with Magicwand (http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=305481) (and there q8 was r8 which is even worse for black). It would be playable with j4, and a matter of style who one thinks is better.
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Re: #157 - hailthorn vs Sur

Post by Sur »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm21 Captures:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . X . . . . . , . O . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Forced move again, I hope I'll get to play soon. I don't see any other option as I need to make life for my group. Now it's alive and safe. Black has some weaknesses and possible reductions that I'll need to exploit later.
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