And then? Without this rule, AGA Rules make no sense.

I think you're missing the point. You're right that this rule is necessary, but mhlepore is saying that merely stating this rule will leave many visitors rather confused. Some further explanation will be necessary to avoid misunderstandings.

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Yes. There are people who will do pass stones without filling in all the dame.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B black to play
$$ +-----------+
$$ | . . O O . |
$$ | X X X O . |
$$ | . . X O O |
$$ | X . X O . |
$$ | . X . O . |
$$ +-----------+[/go]

AGA rules, black to play, what is the best move?

Some information that's more suitable for display (and translation?) at tournaments can be seen via this page: http://www.britgo.org/rules/aga.html

Cheers

Jon

The AGA invented this rule set. I don't understand why they don't have something similar on their own website.

Well done BGA!

Sure, I don't disagree this point. But this same "weakness" is also true in Chinese rules. I'd be curious to hear what strong/professional Chinese players recommend as the best play and why (or why not).

I think the point of AGA rules is to compromise between the large Chinese population used to area based scoring and the rest of the population used to territory based scoring. It seems a fair compromise to me.

Proponents of AGA rules and similar concoctions tend to use two claims to bolster their systems: elegance and ease of use for beginners.

When the general Japanese go population first encountered Chinese rules through many articles in go magazines in the 1930s to 1960s, this sort of aesthetic point was often made, and it is one that many professionals still cleave to.

Mathematics-biased researchers often attach an almost religious awe to a different aesthetic: elegance. But no-one has made a convincing case why the theoretical aesthetic of elegance should outweigh the practical aesthetic of Japanese rules. Even outside of go, the Japanese cultural aesthetic is generally uncomfortable with perfection - a small flaw, or "happy accident" in an objet d'art is usually esteemed.

With regard to ease of use by beginners, as the Congress shows and as is only to be expected of such endeavours, the Law of Unintended Effects kicks in, and the regular players (the mass, after all) just end up confused.

Don't expect AGA rules to sweep the world any time soon.

1) There are two different kinds of elegance WRT AGA Rules: the elegance of area scoring (one playout solves it all, visual impression equals scoring, the score is related to the available board intersections) and the elegance of the equivalence that both area count and territory count determine the area score. Therefore, your mentioning of just "elegance" does not describe the rules nature well enough.

2) Easy to use for beginners means "easy to use for beginners". It does not mean "easy to use for tournament players too lazy to inform themselves which rules are being used at all. The latter stir up trouble under any ruleset. However, from my observations, tournament players unfamiliar with AGA style rules but willing to learn their application do it right from their second game under AGA style rules on. This shows just how easy to learn AGA style rules are for tournament players, except those unwilling to learn at all.

3) What would be "the practical aesthetic of Japanese rules"? Before you start to argue, think, and you will notice that, if anything, not Japanese rules might claim some sort of practical aesthetic, but Japanese-derived go server rules might, namely when they allow omission of dame filling and so cause the unaesthetic confusion about which teire might be necessary. Needless to say, such an attempt of argument is only one possible aspect of what a few might consider aesthetics. Other aspects for Japanese style rules include a) missing identity of visual impression (stone colour) and scoring (unaesthetic), b) scoring complexity (unaesthetic), c) perfect play requirement (could be perceived as aesthetic), d) missing relevant of only the players' skill (unaesthetic), e) destroyed position during traditional counting (unaesthetic), f) speed of counting (Why is speed aesthetic or unaesthetic at all? Why is a speed similar to a possible speed for area scoring (using point-by-point half counting) any more or less aesthetic?), g) typical nearest scores (Why is being typical a matter of aesthetics?). I.e., there are points for practical aesthetics and points for practical unaesthetics. Claiming the former cannot be justified as a clear advantage in view of the latter.

4) You try to construct why theoretical elegance could or could not outweigh practical elegance. More relevantly, one can discuss whether the practical aspects of (in)elegance in area scoring and in Japanese style territory scoring can be compared.

5) Religious? Come on. Japanese style proponents' reasoning easily becomes religious when there is, e.g., talk of beauty of neutral points. Therefore you attempt of perceiving "religion" only for mathematicians preferring area scoring must fail. Religion is a right not only of mathematicians;)

6) Small flaws? Uh, but what about the extraordinarily great flaws? Admit it: Japanese culture prefers to avoid great flaws!

7) AGA Rules are becoming more and more popular. Presumably they won't claim the world any time soon, but neither scoring system will. So what.

Especially this summary page. All we need is 1) a list of the common options that TD's may choose, and 2) diagrams (maybe?).

It is common for there to be a vertically-oriented half sheet of Letter/A4 size paper next to each board explaining how to program the clock. There could also be this crib sheet in multiple languages that players can point at to communicate. Attached a simple example (it's not formatted exactly right for printing and cutting, but it demonstrates the idea).

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B white to play
$$ +-----------+
$$ | . . X X X |
$$ | O X X X . |
$$ | O O O X . |
$$ | . O O X . |
$$ | O . O X . |
$$ +-----------+[/go]

Suppose for the sake of argument:
1) there are no prisoners
2) komi in this game = 1.5.

My understanding is that White's ability to throw in at the 1-2 point is relevant in certain rulesets but not others.

The "elegance" of one ruleset over another in these situations is interesting only to rules buffs. Strong players from a variety of countries seem to just want to play Go.

I remember years ago the Seattle Go Center having monthly tournaments where we played rated games but we did not have the White passes last requirement. Everyone was always thankful to her that when it was announced, regardless of its impact on the territory vs. area scoring equivalence.

Did you or did you not use pass stones?

The Seattle Go Center tournaments have always been Japanese rules. (At least 8 years anyway and I'd be surprised if it was different before)

I brought this to the attention of the relevant people last week and I now hear that there are plans afoot to make this happen.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +-------------+
$$ | X . X . X . |
$$ | O X X . . . |
$$ | O O X X X . |
$$ | . O O O X X |
$$ | O . O . O X |
$$ | . O X . O . |
$$ +-------------+[/go]

B to play and win. Both sides have played 12 stones. B has captured one W stone in the upper left corner. W has 1 point komi.

Oops, bad problem (W has a ko threat). See the next post.

Thoughts on this variation?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ +-------------+
$$ | . . X . . . |
$$ | O X . . X . |
$$ | O X X X X . |
$$ | O O O O X X |
$$ | O . O . O X |
$$ | . O . . O X |
$$ +-------------+[/go]

Black to play and win. Komi is 2.5.

_________________
That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.
--
My (sadly neglected, but not forgotten) project: http://dailyjoseki.com

You didn't state the komi.