With a tweaked local shape, we can go back to your question end of post 24:
If B hane-blocks, a ko is possible:and Black could have gone on to start a ko on the bottom?
If B pulls back or jumps back, then no cut for
( ko still possible later ) :FuriousGeorge's Study Journal
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EdLee
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Uberdude
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Re: FuriousGeorge's Study Journal
I've been wanting to interject in this discussion for a while, and now that Ed's reached his conclusion it seems reasonable to do so. And my point is that in fact George's initial move 2 was actually better than Ed's suggested move 2! This is a rather more subtle point than George's initial mistake of thinking there was a problem in the corner that necessitated white 18, so is aimed more at Ed and sdk or low-dan level players (though hopefully George can follow), indeed it is a shape mistake I still sometimes make at 4 dan (because of the same instinct that Ed has of atari from 2nd line being normal).
To simplify the position I will add back on the 2 lines above (to make it clear the white group is totally alive), and get rid of that potential cut in the wall:
Black's wedging in move of 1 (I wouldn't call it a clamp, maybe an atekomi) isnt't a good move, just giving white a dead stone, but how best to answer (locally)? The problem with Ed's atari from the right (the usual instinct to capture a stone on the 2nd line) is that black's first line descent becomes sente to save the stone (would probably be played much later). This can have quite some endgame value and in other situations can even affect the life and death status of the black group (I have once made this mistake of atari-ing from the wrong side which meant I was unable to kill the black group where I would have otherwise been able to):
If white captures the stone then that's a sente endgame gain for black (especially if white's 1st line hane connect there was sente), and if white ignores (more likely to be best) then later black can save one stone as white is short of liberties to cut at a:
However, if white plays atari from the 1st line, then black's descent to 3 has a much smaller follow-up (he can't save 1, only play some ataris forcing white to capture and fill in at 1):
And if black doesn't play the descent, the exchange of 1 for 2 is actually negative, because it means when white plays the first line hane white has a choice of cutting at a for a ko as well as simple connect at b if black blocks (though white stands to lose a lot from the ko as well as black). And if black pulls back at a instead of 5 because he is scared of the ko that's a 2 point gain for white (compared to if black hadn't played his silly wedging move of 1, and white just did the normal endgame 1st line hane, black blocked as no ko possibility, white connects and black connects).
So the 1st line atari has advantages if black plays next in the area (descent not sente to save stone), and if white plays next (possiblity of (fairly heavy for both) ko if black blocks). If black is building territory on the lower side and white's 1st line hane is sente then probably it will be white who plays first, and probably white doesn't want to fight the ko so it ends up not making a difference whether you played 2nd or 1st line atari, but there is an important difference between them which in other situations can be the difference between life and death, or quite a few endgame points, so it's worth learning the lessons from this shape.
P.S. There is a downside of the 1st line atari, namely the peep at 2-2, but that's not a problem here (and one reason I showed the white group extending up the side).
EdLee wrote:FuriousGeorge wrote:is not a cut; it's a clamp.
And your
( In your var,is incorrect, and
is also incorrect. )
EdLee wrote:Thank you for the patience; I was looking for thisFuriousGeorge wrote: In my original variation I atari from underneath, allowing Black to run in. If I atari from the right, even if Black tries to save at A, there's nowhere to go.
To simplify the position I will add back on the 2 lines above (to make it clear the white group is totally alive), and get rid of that potential cut in the wall:
Black's wedging in move of 1 (I wouldn't call it a clamp, maybe an atekomi) isnt't a good move, just giving white a dead stone, but how best to answer (locally)? The problem with Ed's atari from the right (the usual instinct to capture a stone on the 2nd line) is that black's first line descent becomes sente to save the stone (would probably be played much later). This can have quite some endgame value and in other situations can even affect the life and death status of the black group (I have once made this mistake of atari-ing from the wrong side which meant I was unable to kill the black group where I would have otherwise been able to):
If white captures the stone then that's a sente endgame gain for black (especially if white's 1st line hane connect there was sente), and if white ignores (more likely to be best) then later black can save one stone as white is short of liberties to cut at a:
However, if white plays atari from the 1st line, then black's descent to 3 has a much smaller follow-up (he can't save 1, only play some ataris forcing white to capture and fill in at 1):
And if black doesn't play the descent, the exchange of 1 for 2 is actually negative, because it means when white plays the first line hane white has a choice of cutting at a for a ko as well as simple connect at b if black blocks (though white stands to lose a lot from the ko as well as black). And if black pulls back at a instead of 5 because he is scared of the ko that's a 2 point gain for white (compared to if black hadn't played his silly wedging move of 1, and white just did the normal endgame 1st line hane, black blocked as no ko possibility, white connects and black connects).
So the 1st line atari has advantages if black plays next in the area (descent not sente to save stone), and if white plays next (possiblity of (fairly heavy for both) ko if black blocks). If black is building territory on the lower side and white's 1st line hane is sente then probably it will be white who plays first, and probably white doesn't want to fight the ko so it ends up not making a difference whether you played 2nd or 1st line atari, but there is an important difference between them which in other situations can be the difference between life and death, or quite a few endgame points, so it's worth learning the lessons from this shape.
P.S. There is a downside of the 1st line atari, namely the peep at 2-2, but that's not a problem here (and one reason I showed the white group extending up the side).
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FuriousGeorge
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Re: FuriousGeorge's Study Journal
Thank you everyone for your comments and suggestions. I will continue to review and analyze. Hopefully I will not make the same mistakes again!
Going back to something I said earlier, with the cheap set we now have at my office, I've now introduced Go to well over a dozen people, explained it in depth to at least 8 people, and we now have 5 people playing simultaneous 9x9 games (some are playing more than one) in an empty space (it's an open office concept).
I've started to work on my introduction, since I stumbled through it the first few times, but most everyone asked really good questions, which made it easier. I also tried introducing it by means of Atari Go to one person, but I think I may have made it more confusing than it needed to be, so we ditched it to just play 'normal' Go. I think I'll save Atari Go for younger individuals and improve my introduction for adults.
We're using Chinese scoring right now because it's dead-simple to explain. I have it on my list to learn how to score with Japanese scoring as well so that I can do it IRL without a computer or reference material.
Several people found ko's very quickly, and I've only had to introduce the concept of 'two-eyes' in one situation so far. At least 2 that I know of have starting playing online as well. The response has been enthusiastic, but I'm trying to keep it low-key so that it doesn't impact anyone's work. So far so good.
I've also gotten 3 people when they first see the board saying: "Oh, Othello! I love Othello!"
Going back to something I said earlier, with the cheap set we now have at my office, I've now introduced Go to well over a dozen people, explained it in depth to at least 8 people, and we now have 5 people playing simultaneous 9x9 games (some are playing more than one) in an empty space (it's an open office concept).
I've started to work on my introduction, since I stumbled through it the first few times, but most everyone asked really good questions, which made it easier. I also tried introducing it by means of Atari Go to one person, but I think I may have made it more confusing than it needed to be, so we ditched it to just play 'normal' Go. I think I'll save Atari Go for younger individuals and improve my introduction for adults.
We're using Chinese scoring right now because it's dead-simple to explain. I have it on my list to learn how to score with Japanese scoring as well so that I can do it IRL without a computer or reference material.
Several people found ko's very quickly, and I've only had to introduce the concept of 'two-eyes' in one situation so far. At least 2 that I know of have starting playing online as well. The response has been enthusiastic, but I'm trying to keep it low-key so that it doesn't impact anyone's work. So far so good.
I've also gotten 3 people when they first see the board saying: "Oh, Othello! I love Othello!"
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FuriousGeorge
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Re: FuriousGeorge's Study Journal
Quick update:
Recent scheduling changes have made it even more difficult to find time for full-length games, so my progress has slowed to a crawl. I've recently only had time for correspondence games, tsumego, and a bit of reading.
As far as books go, over the last several months I've completed:
- Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go - Toshiro Kageyama
- Master Play, The Style of Go Seigen - Yuan Zhou
While the Go Seigen book was over my head I enjoyed reading it for the historical aspect as well as just being introduced to different thoughts and styles.
I'm currently reading:
- Opening Theory Made Easy - Hideo Otake
With plans to re-read 'Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go' and:
- Invincible: the Games of Shusaku - John Power
I've also got a copy of 'Attack and Defense' by Akira Ishida and James Davies as it came highly recommended, but I'm waiting to read that one until I'm stronger. Does anyone have any other suggestions? (And yes, I know just playing is superior to reading but until I can carve out more time I have to keep my options flexible...)
For tsumego, I'm working through:
- Graded Go Problems for Beginners, volume 2
but I plan to work through it again once I finish because I'm struggling with some of the later problems — it'll take me more than a few minutes to work my way through and often my reading is faulty (not anticipating or seeing the response) leading to incorrect answers. I HAVE noticed a great improvement in my general reading skills however.
I still have 2 coworkers that are playing casual games daily as time permits. I also got around to figuring out how to do Japanese scoring manually although it STILL gives me the heebie-jeebies to move stones around while scoring even though I know the math works out.
Recent scheduling changes have made it even more difficult to find time for full-length games, so my progress has slowed to a crawl. I've recently only had time for correspondence games, tsumego, and a bit of reading.
As far as books go, over the last several months I've completed:
- Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go - Toshiro Kageyama
- Master Play, The Style of Go Seigen - Yuan Zhou
While the Go Seigen book was over my head I enjoyed reading it for the historical aspect as well as just being introduced to different thoughts and styles.
I'm currently reading:
- Opening Theory Made Easy - Hideo Otake
With plans to re-read 'Lessons in the Fundamentals of Go' and:
- Invincible: the Games of Shusaku - John Power
I've also got a copy of 'Attack and Defense' by Akira Ishida and James Davies as it came highly recommended, but I'm waiting to read that one until I'm stronger. Does anyone have any other suggestions? (And yes, I know just playing is superior to reading but until I can carve out more time I have to keep my options flexible...)
For tsumego, I'm working through:
- Graded Go Problems for Beginners, volume 2
but I plan to work through it again once I finish because I'm struggling with some of the later problems — it'll take me more than a few minutes to work my way through and often my reading is faulty (not anticipating or seeing the response) leading to incorrect answers. I HAVE noticed a great improvement in my general reading skills however.
I still have 2 coworkers that are playing casual games daily as time permits. I also got around to figuring out how to do Japanese scoring manually although it STILL gives me the heebie-jeebies to move stones around while scoring even though I know the math works out.
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sparky314
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Re: FuriousGeorge's Study Journal
What are you interested in reading? And the purpose?
To enjoy some more history? To see more pro games? To get stronger quicker?
All the books you've listed are excellent. But suggestions would be dependent on purpose/enjoyment.
To enjoy some more history? To see more pro games? To get stronger quicker?
All the books you've listed are excellent. But suggestions would be dependent on purpose/enjoyment.
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FuriousGeorge
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Re: FuriousGeorge's Study Journal
... all three of those sound good?
I tend to base my reading on what level of energy I have. Low energy something more enjoyable like historical games or commentary, high energy for new theory or tactics.
I tend to base my reading on what level of energy I have. Low energy something more enjoyable like historical games or commentary, high energy for new theory or tactics.
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sparky314
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Re: FuriousGeorge's Study Journal
History and Pro Games w/Commentary : Someone else more knowledgeable in that area may be able to provide some suggestions. I've heard John Fairbairn's books are great.
If you're just looking for kifu by some excellent players, there's a link on here by Logan with the PDFs, or you can check out go4go.net (free registration required). There's also Go Games on Demand (GoGoD) if you're looking for an entire collection.
To get stronger quickly?
My personal opinion: tsumego, tesuji, games. Avoid theory, save for a couple of books. Rinse and repeat with tsumego/tesuji. I recommend at least three times per book. I usually vary it up a little, so will do tesuji when I'm feeling too tired for any more tsumego (I find tesuji/shape slightly less intensive).
Theory:
Tsumego/Tesuji:
There's a lot more in this category, but that's a good start. Of course, you can get carried away like some of us on this forum, and soon find a collection of 50-100+ books just waiting to be read.
If you are interested in more, Justin Teng has a nice review books in his Personal Go Collection
If you're looking for tsumego/tesuji suggestions, here's my recommended list (based on level)
Go Books Google Doc. No reviews though, just a list.
If you're just looking for kifu by some excellent players, there's a link on here by Logan with the PDFs, or you can check out go4go.net (free registration required). There's also Go Games on Demand (GoGoD) if you're looking for an entire collection.
To get stronger quickly?
My personal opinion: tsumego, tesuji, games. Avoid theory, save for a couple of books. Rinse and repeat with tsumego/tesuji. I recommend at least three times per book. I usually vary it up a little, so will do tesuji when I'm feeling too tired for any more tsumego (I find tesuji/shape slightly less intensive).
Theory:
- Opening Theory Made Easy (10-20k)
- Attack and Defense (5-15k)
- Reducing Territorial Frameworks (1-5k)
- Making Good Shape or Shape Up (free online pdf) (5-15k)
Tsumego/Tesuji:
- Graded Go Problems for Beginners v2-3 (8-20k)
- 1001 Life and Death (4-12k)
- Get Strong at Tesuji (5-12k)
- Graded Go Problems for Beginners v4 (2-5k)
There's a lot more in this category, but that's a good start. Of course, you can get carried away like some of us on this forum, and soon find a collection of 50-100+ books just waiting to be read.
If you are interested in more, Justin Teng has a nice review books in his Personal Go CollectionIf you're looking for tsumego/tesuji suggestions, here's my recommended list (based on level)
Go Books Google Doc. No reviews though, just a list.