Life In 19x19

Finally the fourth loss (see the post above for the other three) shows that Deepzen still has problems with dead shapes.

Shenoute wrote:Finally the fourth loss (see the post above for the other three) shows that Deepzen still has problems with dead shapes.

I think / agree with Uberdude that it is more surprising that AG doesn't have this kind of problem than DeepZen having it. If I heard about the neural search idea for the first time today, my first thought would be that won't it miss key moves sometimes? (In the Sada Atsushi position, it probably didn't miss the corner placement, but maybe missed one of the responses after the hane, where the opponent sets up the ko.) So what can AG do differently?

1. More processing power, more search. This is not a good explanation in itself, since having even 100 times more performance is still negligible for wider searches. I think a program can only hope to search about 2-3, max 4 candidates on average.

2. Better net. This is at least a possibility, but I still don't think it is realistic for a net never to miss key moves (or rank them just a bit too low).

3. Better connection between the net and the search, better search techniques (such as when to widen the search, when to deepen it etc.) This may be a possibility, but nothing tangible at this point.

I think the most likely explanation comes from 1+3: maybe AG does significantly wider searches around the top of the tree (first 2-3 moves or so), and only prune heavily deeper. This would explain the lack of visible oversights, but would still leave it with unnoticed weeknesses where key moves are missed deeper in the tree, leading to suboptimal choices at top.

moha wrote:(...)
I think the most likely explanation comes from 1+3: maybe AG does significantly wider searches around the top of the tree (first 2-3 moves or so), and only prune heavily deeper. This would explain the lack of visible oversights, but would still leave it with unnoticed weeknesses where key moves are missed deeper in the tree, leading to suboptimal choices at top.

Yes, you're probably right. AI does work in mysterious ways

Bad day for Deepzen, it just lost against hanuu a Japanese 9p on Wbaduk. I've watched a couple dozen of Deepzen's games there and it is the first I see him lose (it seems that it is not possible anymore to view players' past games with WBaduk client so it's harder to keep track of how he's doing).

I 've got the feeling that deepzengo was outplayed very early at the bottom and could not catch up...

Followers of the games on Tygem might find this list of usernames and the pros behind useful e.g. DeepZenGo just beat HopeIdo aka Meng Tailing 6p.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Is it become accepted that AlphaGo can handle Japanese rule and its complication? Because I thought that at first but some Reddit comment said to me that it can't handle yet, AlphaGo just so strong it doesn't matter anymore. So I'm a little bit confused here. Applaud DeepZen that it can, mostly handle Japanese rule.

Some interesting fighting between big sticks of stones in Zen vs Tsurata Kazushi 4p whose kick of move 6 was perhaps AlphaGo Zero inspired:

Uberdude wrote:Some interesting fighting between big sticks of stones in Zen vs Tsurata Kazushi 4p whose kick of move 6 was perhaps AlphaGo Zero inspired:

Nice. Around move 56, I think my group would die regardless of which color I would play

Zen went 26W-3L on the 24th and is currently at 19W-1L as far as the 25th is concerned.

Something strange just happened in its last game. Zen played a double ko he could not win (in the bottom right corner). In one of the games I posted earlier in this thread (the one against 5353), Zen also tried to play two ko simultaneously.


Here is a very short game (111 moves) won today by XIUZHI(P).


And to make good measure, here is a even shorter win (94 moves) yesterday by Zen, a nice kill in the center.

Shenoute wrote:Zen went 26W-3L on the 24th and is currently at 19W-1L as far as the 25th is concerned.
Here is a very short game (111 moves) won today by XIUZHI(P).

that would be Park Jungwhan, right?(I found this name from the senseis page about the masters games, where he he also played a couple of games)

So it seems Zen is still not over the top of the very top professionals

Schachus wrote:

Shenoute wrote: Here is a very short game (111 moves) won today by XIUZHI(P).

that would be Park Jungwhan, right?(I found this name from the senseis page about the masters games, where he he also played a couple of games)

Yes, according to the spreadsheet of known pro's Tygem usernames I posted just above.

Zen's second loss of today. Replaying it, it feels like a convincing win by abc2080 (Kim Junghyun 5p according to the list posted above by Uberdude). I like the way black handled the top left corner after 132.

Shenoute, mostly you've focused on Zen's losses, but who are the Tygem wins against? Does it beat top 20 pros more than it loses to them? Has it beaten XIUZHI (Park)?

Uberdude wrote:Shenoute, mostly you've focused on Zen's losses, but who are the Tygem wins against? Does it beat top 20 pros more than it loses to them? Has it beaten XIUZHI (Park)?

Ah, you're right, sorry. I guess focusing on its losses is my way to deal with AI supremacy More seriously, it is mainly because Zen plays around 30 games per day on Tygem and I can't look at them all so I tend to pick the ones that stand out (losses and short games mainly).

It is hard to do any statistics with the Tygem client (with the English version at least) but I had a look and my impression is that no player has more wins than losses againt Zen (at least not those who have played it more than once). To flesh it out a bit, here is a list of Zen's victorious opponents since he came back on the 20th:

abc2080 (25th)
XIUZHI (25th)
DTou (24th)
Burn (24th)
Alex (24th)
Mollayo (23rd)
KeA (23rd)
5353 (23rd)
CHAH (23rd, on 2 stones)
tmch (22nd)
TuTu (21st)

None of these opponents has won twice against Zen, although some play every day against him (Hopeldo, Mollayo, Burn, Alex, aisdir, MilkTea, DTou, JD, all have played Zen several times). For instance XIUZHI played and lost three other games (on the 20th, 21st and 23rd). But since he won his last game I guess we'll see if he is making progress. Generally speaking Zen is losing a bit more now than on the first three days.

Let's recap the stats for DeepZenGo-Tygem event this time
Zen v.15.4 (or 15.3)
Time setting: 10 minutes 30 second byoyomi 3 periods
Win/Total
Even games
134/144
H1 games
4/4
H2 games
1/2 (Both games were against the same opponent CHAH(P))
Winrate (combining even games + H1 games) 93%
As of game no.983276834