What about walls

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:10 am

Hello,

I'm quite interested in walls.

I'm a bit curious on what you may say about them.

Well, I know, it's a quite open question... but I like to be surprised, so that would be nice if you can just tell me one thing that you may consider worth to know about walls ...
Thx

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:16 am

Walls have ears but they don't have eyes, so I take particular joy in killing them; e.g.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:25 am

Wall are a special case of thickness, i.e., assess their connection and life statuses and potential for creating territory.

oca · Post by **oca** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:34 am

Uberdude wrote:Walls have ears

really ? I understand what is an eye (fortunately)... but what do you call "ears" for a wall ?

moyoaji · Post by **moyoaji** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:02 am

Good walls exert a special kind of influence called "thickness" - which means the wall is "powerful" or "strong."

There is a good rule about using walls that says "do not use thickness to make territory." A wall is not useful as a border of an area of territory. It actually makes you over-concentrated to have all those stones making points in the center of the board. Instead, use thickness to attack.

The idea of killing a wall is usually futile because a good wall is thick not only because it is large but because it has a lot of potential for eye shape. The reason the 3-3 invasion joseki is seen as dubious in the opening of the game is because the thickness the other player gains on the outside is worth more on an open board than the territory on the inside. This wall is almost impossible to kill because its cuts are defensible and it has good eye shape.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:00 am

oca wrote:
Uberdude wrote:Walls have ears

really ? I understand what is an eye (fortunately)... but what do you call "ears" for a wall ?

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/_/d ... +have+ears

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:49 am

Something I picked up from Takagawa.

Some walls need extensions, some don't. Walls with eye shape or good eye potential do not need extensions. Walls without good eye potential do.

oca · Post by **oca** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 pm

Uberdude wrote:
oca wrote:
Uberdude wrote:Walls have ears

really ? I understand what is an eye (fortunately)... but what do you call "ears" for a wall ?

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/_/d ... +have+ears

We say the same in french ... "les murs ont des oreilles", I was too focused on go terminology :lol:

BTW I like your game you very much !

moyoaji wrote:.... 3-3 invasion joseki....
This wall is almost impossible to kill because its cuts are defensible

I just saw that... something like this I suppose.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ | . . . , . . . . . , $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . 4 . . . . . $$ | . O X 3 7 8 . . . . $$ | . O X 1 2 9 0 . . . $$ | . . O X 5 . . . . , $$ | . . O X 6 X . . . . $$ | . . O O X . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ --------------------[/go]

Bill Spight wrote:Some walls need extensions, some don't.

Oh... I just put extensions on nearly any wall I build, but I suppose I just waste some move then... I have to think about that.

SmoothOper · Post by **SmoothOper** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:26 am

What about Great Walls? Pretty good strategy, too good in fact.

oca · Post by **oca** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:35 am

Oh, thx for mentioning that ! Actually, this GreatWall reminds me what I was doing when I first discovered go in october last year (playing against... igowin)
but that was on a 9x9 goban and it only woked for me till igowin got to level ~25kyu (in it's own ranking system)

That said, tengen is still something I'm curious about, but I will let that topic for later experimentation as I would like to undestand the basics first... :study:

peti29 · Post by **peti29** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:47 am

moyoaji wrote:There is a good rule about using walls that says "do not use thickness to make territory." A wall is not useful as a border of an area of territory. It actually makes you over-concentrated to have all those stones making points in the center of the board. Instead, use thickness to attack.

This is very important. I'm still trying to learn this.

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:19 am

"Do not use thickness to make territory" is one of the bad proverbs designed to keep kyu players kyu players. It should be: "Use thickness / influence for making territory, creating thickness / influence elsewhere, attacking, defending, creating / exploiting weaknesses, eliminating weaknesses, creating options, creating strategic choices or etc."

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:01 pm

RobertJasiek wrote:"Do not use thickness to make territory" is one of the bad proverbs designed to keep kyu players kyu players. It should be: "Use thickness / influence for making territory, creating thickness / influence elsewhere, attacking, defending, creating / exploiting weaknesses, eliminating weaknesses, creating options, creating strategic choices or etc."

In other words the proverb should be "Use thickness!"

RobertJasiek · Post by **RobertJasiek** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:51 pm

Use thickness to its full potential!

Yami · Post by **Yami** » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:46 pm

It's helpful to have a wall when you invade. You'll have something to run to.

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