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What about walls
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:10 am
by oca
Hello,
I'm quite interested in walls.
I'm a bit curious on what you may say about them.
Well, I know, it's a quite open question... but I like to be surprised, so that would be nice if you can just tell me one thing that you may consider worth to know about walls ...
Thx
Re: What about walls
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:16 am
by Uberdude
Walls have ears but they don't have eyes, so I take particular joy in killing them; e.g.
Re: What about walls
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:25 am
by RobertJasiek
Wall are a special case of thickness, i.e., assess their connection and life statuses and potential for creating territory.
Re: What about walls
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 8:34 am
by oca
Uberdude wrote:Walls have ears
really ? I understand what is an eye (fortunately)... but what do you call "ears" for a wall ?
Re: What about walls
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 9:02 am
by moyoaji
Good walls exert a special kind of influence called "thickness" - which means the wall is "powerful" or "strong."
There is a good rule about using walls that says "do not use thickness to make territory." A wall is not useful as a border of an area of territory. It actually makes you over-concentrated to have all those stones making points in the center of the board. Instead, use thickness to attack.
The idea of killing a wall is usually futile because a good wall is thick not only because it is large but because it has a lot of potential for eye shape. The reason the 3-3 invasion joseki is seen as dubious in the opening of the game is because the thickness the other player gains on the outside is worth more on an open board than the territory on the inside. This wall is almost impossible to kill because its cuts are defensible and it has good eye shape.
Re: What about walls
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:00 am
by Uberdude
oca wrote:Uberdude wrote:Walls have ears
really ? I understand what is an eye (fortunately)... but what do you call "ears" for a wall ?
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/_/d ... +have+ears
Re: What about walls
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:49 am
by Bill Spight
Something I picked up from Takagawa.
Some walls need extensions, some don't. Walls with eye shape or good eye potential do not need extensions. Walls without good eye potential do.
Re: What about walls
Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:47 pm
by oca
We say the same in french ... "les murs ont des oreilles", I was too focused on go terminology
BTW I like your game you very much !
moyoaji wrote:.... 3-3 invasion joseki....
This wall is almost impossible to kill because its cuts are defensible
I just saw that... something like this I suppose.
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$$ | . O X 1 2 9 0 . . .
$$ | . . O X 5 . . . . ,
$$ | . . O X 6 X . . . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------
- Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ | . . . , . . . . . ,
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . 4 . . . . .
$$ | . O X 3 7 8 . . . .
$$ | . O X 1 2 9 0 . . .
$$ | . . O X 5 . . . . ,
$$ | . . O X 6 X . . . .
$$ | . . O O X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . .
$$ --------------------[/go]
Bill Spight wrote:Some walls need extensions, some don't.
Oh... I just put extensions on nearly any wall I build, but I suppose I just waste some move then... I have to think about that.
Re: What about walls
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:26 am
by SmoothOper
What about Great Walls? Pretty good strategy, too good in fact.
Re: What about walls
Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:35 am
by oca
Oh, thx for mentioning that ! Actually, this
GreatWall reminds me what I was doing when I first discovered go in october last year (playing against... igowin)
but that was on a 9x9 goban and it only woked for me till igowin got to level ~25kyu (in it's own ranking system)
That said, tengen is still something I'm curious about, but I will let that topic for later experimentation as I would like to undestand the basics first...
Re: What about walls
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:47 am
by peti29
moyoaji wrote:There is a good rule about using walls that says "do not use thickness to make territory." A wall is not useful as a border of an area of territory. It actually makes you over-concentrated to have all those stones making points in the center of the board. Instead, use thickness to attack.
This is very important. I'm still trying to learn this.
Re: What about walls
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 9:19 am
by RobertJasiek
"Do not use thickness to make territory" is one of the bad proverbs designed to keep kyu players kyu players. It should be: "Use thickness / influence for making territory, creating thickness / influence elsewhere, attacking, defending, creating / exploiting weaknesses, eliminating weaknesses, creating options, creating strategic choices or etc."
Re: What about walls
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:01 pm
by ez4u
RobertJasiek wrote:"Do not use thickness to make territory" is one of the bad proverbs designed to keep kyu players kyu players. It should be: "Use thickness / influence for making territory, creating thickness / influence elsewhere, attacking, defending, creating / exploiting weaknesses, eliminating weaknesses, creating options, creating strategic choices or etc."
In other words the proverb should be "Use thickness!"
Re: What about walls
Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:51 pm
by RobertJasiek
Use thickness to its full potential!
Re: What about walls
Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:46 pm
by Yami
It's helpful to have a wall when you invade. You'll have something to run to.
