I know the typical joseki is like this
But I've seen some players go like this
I'm curious firstly, is there a big difference when black goes E16 as opposed to E17. Second is, how does black follow up when white responds like this
My initial thought was this
To be honest, whites move at F16 looks really dumb but I ask because I've seen so many people do that. I thought I probably missed something.
What's the idea behind this 3-3 invasion?
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chef
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What's the idea behind this 3-3 invasion?
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Abyssinica
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Re: What's the idea behind this 3-3 invasion?
I think white shouldn't cut at 4 and continue the "joseki" as usual (Playing a hane on the second line), being happy that black gave him extra profit. I'd rather have the thickness, but that's just me.
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moyoaji
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Re: What's the idea behind this 3-3 invasion?
More common is this:
The reason for this joseki is so that black can get sente because in the usual 3-3 invasion white ends in sente. Black surrenders more and leaves white more open on the top but, in exchange, gets to tenuki.
tenukiThe reason for this joseki is so that black can get sente because in the usual 3-3 invasion white ends in sente. Black surrenders more and leaves white more open on the top but, in exchange, gets to tenuki.
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Dusk Eagle
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Re: What's the idea behind this 3-3 invasion?
My thoughts:
The cut seems like an overplay to me, unless white is strong on the right or has the ladder.
There's no need to play
here, since 
threatens the group of three, not 
. Now, white's in trouble.
Now white has to push through and cut in order to live:
And the result doesn't seem good for white.
Instead, white could play like this:
This doesn't seem bad for white, but I think
is a mistake if black has the ladder. In that case, I think black should instead do:
Maybe it goes like below if the ladder doesn't favor black?
This diagram doesn't look bad for white. Maybe black would prefer to descend to the second line for his first move if he doesn't have the ladder.
There's a lot of diagrams here for a complicated position, so I've probably made some mistakes.
The cut seems like an overplay to me, unless white is strong on the right or has the ladder.
There's no need to play
here, since threatens the group of three, not . Now, white's in trouble.Now white has to push through and cut in order to live:
And the result doesn't seem good for white.
Instead, white could play like this:
This doesn't seem bad for white, but I think
is a mistake if black has the ladder. In that case, I think black should instead do:Maybe it goes like below if the ladder doesn't favor black?
This diagram doesn't look bad for white. Maybe black would prefer to descend to the second line for his first move if he doesn't have the ladder.
There's a lot of diagrams here for a complicated position, so I've probably made some mistakes.
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Re: What's the idea behind this 3-3 invasion?
I should clarify that white's cut is just what I happen to come across. People for some reason love to play that cut. I always suspected that it was a bad move.
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Uberdude
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Re: What's the idea behind this 3-3 invasion?
I saw this extension rather than hane in a pro game today (move 91):
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/42133
The idea is black wants sente to kill off the lower side group. White pushes rather than slides so that when black does tenuki his follow up hane is more severe.
http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/42133
The idea is black wants sente to kill off the lower side group. White pushes rather than slides so that when black does tenuki his follow up hane is more severe.