Usually I ask for reviews of this kind of thing in my study journal, but I think this might be interesting for quite a few people to learn from.
(The game is currently going on, we are at move 90+ and about to start the endgame, so I think it safe to get some opinions on the opening now)
Here are the first 30 moves of the game:
The first thing I'm wondering about is the attack on the black group on the left. Was the attack good? At the time it seemed like on of those textbook examples of attacking while getting profit, but since I can't keep up on both sides black gets quite a bit of influence in return.
Second thing(assuming the attack was ok): How to follow this up. In the game I approached the bottom right, got pincered and even though I got a great result in the corner black got even more influence towards the top and the right. This makes me think that the proper followup might have been R10. The other move I was thinking about was L17 to stabilize the top a bit more, but that seems premature right now.
Any suggestions welcome
(For the interested: this is the game: http://online-go.com/game/721999)
Attack and followup
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moyoaji
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Re: Attack and followup
I've got some comments for you, pak0. Do note that attack and defense is the area I am currently trying to work on in my own games so my advice is not amazing. I mostly want to give you some more ideas of how to proceed. They could be wrong, but at our level experimentation is often a great way to learn.
I also have some comments for earlier in the game.
I also have some comments for earlier in the game.
- Attachments
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- attack.sgf
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"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."
-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves
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oca
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Re: Attack and followup
Hi paK0,
As black, starting at 13, I suppose I would have play that way...
[edit]and I don't like
too...[/edit]
As black, starting at 13, I suppose I would have play that way...
[edit]and I don't like
too...[/edit]Converting the book Shape UP! by Charles Matthews/Seong-June Kim
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
to the gobook format. last updated april 2015 - Index of shapes, p.211 / 216
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Marcus
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Re: Attack and followup
Hi oca,
I think White would have a much better position simply sealing Black into the corner in your variation:
Sure, Black lives in the corner, but is completely sealed off, with two floating stones beside your strong wall.
I also don't like in the game. 
I think White would have a much better position simply sealing Black into the corner in your variation:
Sure, Black lives in the corner, but is completely sealed off, with two floating stones beside your strong wall.
I also don't like
in the game. -
peti29
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Re: Attack and followup
edit: somehow I missed moyoaji's excellent post before writing this...
I don't think I'm strong enough to answer these so my answers will rather be questions themselves...
- Jumping into the corner is a valid response to the pincer (on my weak level at least). But if black wanted to take the corner he should have done it on move
instead of extending towards the center.
- Nice kill! I don't agree with Marcus here. I think this kill is huge. (But I'm probably wrong.)
- I don't like
. Attacking is not my strength. But I would probably approach the top right corner first to gain strength and then would I put pressure on the two black stones.
- "great result in the corner" seems good compensation for black's outside influence. You can't have everything. Being able to give some compensation for your opponent is an important aspect of the game. (Of course, you should make sure that you have the better deal.)
- The resulting black wall at
(although not alive yet) seems frightening to me. I would probably try to cut it at F-16.
I don't think I'm strong enough to answer these so my answers will rather be questions themselves...
- Jumping into the corner is a valid response to the pincer (on my weak level at least). But if black wanted to take the corner he should have done it on move
instead of extending towards the center.- Nice kill! I don't agree with Marcus here. I think this kill is huge. (But I'm probably wrong.)
- I don't like
. Attacking is not my strength. But I would probably approach the top right corner first to gain strength and then would I put pressure on the two black stones.- "great result in the corner" seems good compensation for black's outside influence. You can't have everything. Being able to give some compensation for your opponent is an important aspect of the game. (Of course, you should make sure that you have the better deal.)
- The resulting black wall at
(although not alive yet) seems frightening to me. I would probably try to cut it at F-16.-
skydyr
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Re: Attack and followup
In line with moyoaji's analysis, I like H13 for 
. When white chose the knight's move defence in the bottom left, he made the left side less big. White's two groups on the left are both quite strong, so I think white would be much better served by building center strength while attacking, and using that to prevent black from building enough to make up for the large UL loss.
. When white chose the knight's move defence in the bottom left, he made the left side less big. White's two groups on the left are both quite strong, so I think white would be much better served by building center strength while attacking, and using that to prevent black from building enough to make up for the large UL loss.-
paK0
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Re: Attack and followup
Thanks to all, thats quite a bit of insight and some variations to study.
The jumping up on the outside looks good. I think I considered it, but decided against it because I judged my corner group to be a lot weaker. Yes, black is captured, but black has 2 peeps against the double tigers mouth and if black can turn it into a capturing race I still need quite a few moves to actually capture the group.
Another thing about the overconcentration. I realize that I made all my moves on the left side, but so did black, doesn't that make it even again in this regard?
@peti: The great corner result is pretty good on an empty board, but here it might have been smarter to get something on the outside to counter blacks influence. But I might have said that wrong. Or it is in fact good, I have a lot of trouble judging how much influence is worth.
The jumping up on the outside looks good. I think I considered it, but decided against it because I judged my corner group to be a lot weaker. Yes, black is captured, but black has 2 peeps against the double tigers mouth and if black can turn it into a capturing race I still need quite a few moves to actually capture the group.
Another thing about the overconcentration. I realize that I made all my moves on the left side, but so did black, doesn't that make it even again in this regard?
@peti: The great corner result is pretty good on an empty board, but here it might have been smarter to get something on the outside to counter blacks influence. But I might have said that wrong. Or it is in fact good, I have a lot of trouble judging how much influence is worth.
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Uberdude
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Re: Attack and followup
Just one comment: instead of d18 (which is of course already an awesome position for you killing the corner) play e18 and the corner is still just as dead (as you have b19) but if you ever need it should h17 get in trouble the connection at f18 is stronger. With your shape there is a connection at f18 but if white jumps at h15 later and black peeps at g16 and white connects then white can no longer connect at f18. This shape of adjacent one space jumps with the peep breaking the 2nd line connection is a common shape that's worth studying. Having a back up connection like f18 in case you need it is very useful as it means you can fight a lot harder on the outside.
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Unusedname
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Re: Attack and followup
Two different attacks I would consider.
L15. "Make a fist before striking." Now your group is stable. It has a base. Black will still take many more moves to make a base. The way you attacked makes you easy to counter attack after 
Alternatively @ F13 This would be the move if you wanted to create a moyo on the left side (Which sort of goes against how you played C6. The idea being F13 forces your opponent to play H15, which forces you to play L17 or K16 (aiming at O17), a move you wanted to make anyways.
Either way after settling your H17 stone I would consider tenuki to take the other opening moves before coming back and resuming the attack.
L15. "Make a fist before striking." Now your group is stable. It has a base. Black will still take many more moves to make a base. The way you attacked makes you easy to counter attack after Alternatively
@ F13 This would be the move if you wanted to create a moyo on the left side (Which sort of goes against how you played C6. The idea being F13 forces your opponent to play H15, which forces you to play L17 or K16 (aiming at O17), a move you wanted to make anyways.Either way after settling your H17 stone I would consider tenuki to take the other opening moves before coming back and resuming the attack.